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There's been a lot of debate around Amazon's hiring practices, particularly given the conflicting data and statements from the company. A core issue seems to be

There's been a lot of debate around Amazon's hiring practices, particularly given the conflicting data and statements from the company. A core issue seems to be that Amazon has alienated a significant portion of its domestic engineering talent pool. Many experienced engineers have left, and others seem unwilling to return, even when offered higher-level roles. I personally was an L7 engineer and turned down a boomerang offer. In response, Amazon appears to be increasingly turning to H-1B workers - especially from countries where the company’s reputation hasn't soured as much. Example: https://h1bgrader.com/h1b-sponsors/amazon-dot-com-services-llc-x237343nkg/lca https://h1bgrader.com/h1b-sponsors/amazon-dot-com-services-l... While these engineers may be less experienced, they're often more willing to accept lower compensation, due in part to discrepancies in wage data reported by the Department of Labor. For example, the BLS wage data, which sets a $115k cap for certain wage codes, has led to a misalignment in what’s considered a "fair wage" enabling companies like Amazon to pay these workers below actual market rates. This reliance on overseas talent seems to be more than just a cost-saving measure; it also reflects Amazon's ongoing struggle with high turnover among its U.S. engineering staff. The company’s well-documented high attrition rates, as highlighted in reports like this one from Forbes - https://www.forbes.com/sites/edwardsegal/2022/10/24/amazon-responds-to-release-of-leaked-documents-showing-150-annual-employee-turnover/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/edwardsegal/2022/10/24/amazon-r... - shed light on the challenges Amazon faces in retaining domestic engineers. The LinkedIn data also supports this trend. Candidly, it seems that Amazon has burned too many bridges with U.S.-based engineers, forcing the company to increasingly rely on a less experienced labor pool from abroad in order to maintain its operations, despite being an American based, publicly traded company.

dalyons 11mo ago
what happens to that strategy now that h1bs are being targeted by the current administration?
- Pet_Ant 11mo ago
  I assume they will just open more offices overseas?
- ta9000 11mo ago
  They wait and the next administration reverses course.
legitster 11mo ago
The link you posted is broken. But I can tell you with fair certainty that Amazon's high turnover rate is NOT happening in their engineering departments, though. It's happening in their retail or business departments. I'm kind of horrified by the rise of anti-immigrant rhetoric in engineering circles online and how normalized it's becoming. (Especially troubling how much Indians in particular are drawing ire). Is it really that much different if Amazon brings in a foreign worker to Seattle vs someone from Mississippi? Immigration restrictions are arbitrary and unfair, and in my mind any carveouts for them are a good thing.
- greenie_beans 11mo ago
  > Is it really that much different if Amazon brings in a foreign worker to Seattle vs someone from Mississippi? in what way do you mean different? i would say it is wildly different
  - legitster 11mo ago
    If you're worried about from poorer areas coming in and taking our jobs, how much distinction is there really whether they come from a poorer state or a poorer country? America has free and open trade within its borders. Nobody seems to mind that there are no visa restrictions on someone from Mississippi taking a job in California. The distinction we make between a foreigner coming to take a job and a domestic worker taking a job is (with some particular exceptions) is largely a mental construct.
    - dolni 11mo ago
      The distinction is that in America, we are obligated to take care of Americans. If people immigrate to America, the arrangement should be mutually beneficial. We are not, and should not be, the self-appointed saviors of the world.
      - licebmi__at__ 11mo ago
        > We are not [...] saviors of the world. This is definitely true. You are getting cheap educated labor, boosting your country's economy and crippling competition. Self interest, not savior behavior. Now, that's irrelevant to the argument you are replying, that shows the holes in the wage depression argument.
keeda 11mo ago
It's not even H1Bs and not just Amazon. Amazon and most Big Tech companies have been shifting jobs overseas (via hiring freezes in the US and open headcount in India) for almost 4 years now.
jrs235 11mo ago
From my understanding, the last budget bill passed (called the big beautiful bill by some) had changes to section 174. Specifically that software R&D could once again be immediately fully expensed in the year incurred rather than amortized over several years SO LONG AS its a US based expense. Non US based R&D expenses still need to be amortized, and over an ugly 15 year period. What significant changes to section 174 were made in the big beautiful bill? Key Changes The bill created a new Section 174A that restores immediate deductibility for domestic research and experimental (R&E) expenditures, largely reversing the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act requirement that had forced companies to capitalize and amortize all R&E expenses starting in 2022. Domestic vs. Foreign Treatment: Starting with tax years beginning after December 31, 2024, businesses may immediately deduct domestic R&E expenditures in the year they are paid or incurred Foreign R&E expenditures must continue to be capitalized and amortized over 15 years under the original Section 174 Retroactive Relief Options: The new rules permit taxpayers to deduct previously capitalized and unamortized domestic R&E expenditures over a one- or two-year period, and small businesses may opt to apply new Section 174A going back to 2022 and file amended returns. Eligible small business taxpayers (generally those with average annual gross receipts during the preceding three years not exceeding $31 million) can retroactively expense R&E expenditures for taxable years beginning after December 31, 2021, by filing amended returns. Alternative Treatment: Taxpayers may still elect to capitalize and amortize domestic R&E expenditures over a period of not less than 60 months, or elect to amortize them over a 10-year period. This represents a major win for businesses conducting research and development, as the 2022-2024 capitalization requirement had created significant tax burdens and compliance complexity.
- redwood 11mo ago
  I'm not so sure.. many years of capitalized R&D expenses would eventually compound such that you would find a steady state. And in general all we're talking about here is whether or not a company is profitable and hence is taxed.. most of these companies make sure to spend almost all of what they make to avoid being profitable
gigiogigione 11mo ago
In case you don’t mind sharing: What happened that soured relationships between Amazon and domestic engineers?

dalyons 11mo ago

what happens to that strategy now that h1bs are being targeted by the current administration?

Pet_Ant 11mo ago
I assume they will just open more offices overseas?
ta9000 11mo ago
They wait and the next administration reverses course.

legitster 11mo ago

The link you posted is broken. But I can tell you with fair certainty that Amazon's high turnover rate is NOT happening in their engineering departments, though. It's happening in their retail or business departments. I'm kind of horrified by the rise of anti-immigrant rhetoric in engineering circles online and how normalized it's becoming. (Especially troubling how much Indians in particular are drawing ire). Is it really that much different if Amazon brings in a foreign worker to Seattle vs someone from Mississippi? Immigration restrictions are arbitrary and unfair, and in my mind any carveouts for them are a good thing.

greenie_beans 11mo ago
> Is it really that much different if Amazon brings in a foreign worker to Seattle vs someone from Mississippi? in what way do you mean different? i would say it is wildly different
- legitster 11mo ago
  If you're worried about from poorer areas coming in and taking our jobs, how much distinction is there really whether they come from a poorer state or a poorer country? America has free and open trade within its borders. Nobody seems to mind that there are no visa restrictions on someone from Mississippi taking a job in California. The distinction we make between a foreigner coming to take a job and a domestic worker taking a job is (with some particular exceptions) is largely a mental construct.
  - dolni 11mo ago
    The distinction is that in America, we are obligated to take care of Americans. If people immigrate to America, the arrangement should be mutually beneficial. We are not, and should not be, the self-appointed saviors of the world.
    - licebmi__at__ 11mo ago
      > We are not [...] saviors of the world. This is definitely true. You are getting cheap educated labor, boosting your country's economy and crippling competition. Self interest, not savior behavior. Now, that's irrelevant to the argument you are replying, that shows the holes in the wage depression argument.

keeda 11mo ago

It's not even H1Bs and not just Amazon. Amazon and most Big Tech companies have been shifting jobs overseas (via hiring freezes in the US and open headcount in India) for almost 4 years now.

jrs235 11mo ago

From my understanding, the last budget bill passed (called the big beautiful bill by some) had changes to section 174. Specifically that software R&D could once again be immediately fully expensed in the year incurred rather than amortized over several years SO LONG AS its a US based expense. Non US based R&D expenses still need to be amortized, and over an ugly 15 year period. What significant changes to section 174 were made in the big beautiful bill? Key Changes The bill created a new Section 174A that restores immediate deductibility for domestic research and experimental (R&E) expenditures, largely reversing the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act requirement that had forced companies to capitalize and amortize all R&E expenses starting in 2022. Domestic vs. Foreign Treatment: Starting with tax years beginning after December 31, 2024, businesses may immediately deduct domestic R&E expenditures in the year they are paid or incurred Foreign R&E expenditures must continue to be capitalized and amortized over 15 years under the original Section 174 Retroactive Relief Options: The new rules permit taxpayers to deduct previously capitalized and unamortized domestic R&E expenditures over a one- or two-year period, and small businesses may opt to apply new Section 174A going back to 2022 and file amended returns. Eligible small business taxpayers (generally those with average annual gross receipts during the preceding three years not exceeding $31 million) can retroactively expense R&E expenditures for taxable years beginning after December 31, 2021, by filing amended returns. Alternative Treatment: Taxpayers may still elect to capitalize and amortize domestic R&E expenditures over a period of not less than 60 months, or elect to amortize them over a 10-year period. This represents a major win for businesses conducting research and development, as the 2022-2024 capitalization requirement had created significant tax burdens and compliance complexity.

redwood 11mo ago
I'm not so sure.. many years of capitalized R&D expenses would eventually compound such that you would find a steady state. And in general all we're talking about here is whether or not a company is profitable and hence is taxed.. most of these companies make sure to spend almost all of what they make to avoid being profitable

gigiogigione 11mo ago

In case you don’t mind sharing: What happened that soured relationships between Amazon and domestic engineers?