4 ms·

Even if you can’t move all of it now the basic building blocks like VMs and databases aren’t exactly cutting edge tech so should be doable.

by Havoc 1y ago

toomuchtodo 1y ago
People overestimate the technology required to build the utility stack, from physical servers to the first bit from an http server. Is it easy? It's straightforward. Can there be downtime? Tell me what us-east-1, Azure Front Door, Github, etc have looked like lately. Everyone uses cloud as an excuse for more uptime, but they're still down frequently, so this argument doesn't hold water. Eat some downtime, you're going to regardless if you manage your own infra or outsource. Can't build it yourself? That's fine, people like Oxide can build it for you, and you own all of it. The profits you don't pay to hyperscalers is investment in your sovereignty. Easy case to prioritize stakeholders over Google, Microsoft, and AWS shareholders, and the US government's ability to rug pull your access and data at any time. The argument isn't bare metal vs virtualized; the argument is "Do you own it?" You are spending a certain amount no matter what to get the technology capabilities needed. 37signals Leaves the Cloud - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33260061 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33260061 - October 2022 https://blog.codinghorror.com/the-cloud-is-just-someone-elses-computer/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/the-cloud-is-just-someone-else... https://oxide.computer/ https://oxide.computer/ (have built cloud infra for startups, fortune 100s, financial services firms, and on prem infra for high energy physics, non profits, public goods, etc; thoughts and opinions always my own)
- graemep 1y ago
  > Eat some downtime, you're going to regardless if you manage your own infra or outsource. If its outsourced the downtime is someone else's fault. People prefer opex to capex. You are right at a technical level, but short termism and personal incentives trump those.
  - toomuchtodo 1y ago
    > You are right at a technical level, but short termism and personal incentives trump those. Agreed. Never let a crisis go to waste. This is that crisis. Like bankruptcy, change happens gradually, then suddenly.
zoeysmithe 1y ago
Both those things are like the root account to one's data. If there is a hypervisor backdoor (or if your vendor is told by the government to stop giving you updates or sell you product, or even pull your keys) then its game over. DB's too because they're so mission critical and not trivial to move off. As far as cloud goes, how many shops are now looking at bringing stuff back in because eventually cloud maximizes its profit margins and captured clients can't say no to ever increasing prices. I imagine leaving the US-owned cloud also means an opportunity to reconfigure what is on the cloud and if it needs to be there. Here's hope desktop linux comes back into play. As for Munich moving back to windows, who knows how much of that was 'checkbook diplomacy' of the USA demanding they go back to US products or the US will pull unrelated support or whatever. Now that the USA has become isolationist, if not a threat to the EU, those favors/checks aren't being cashed anymore. So much of this is not a meritocracy but instead the crony capitalism that defines the modern world. Maybe there's potential for actual merit now that the USA is losing global prominence in so many ways. The EU liberated from US influence can lead to great things and this is a good start. For all the doom and gloom of politics today, the US's century of influence ending can only be a universally good thing, imho.
- Herring 1y ago
  I’m the last person you can call a fan of US foreign policy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the_U... But for global stability it’s best if there was some kind of entity with a legitimate monopoly on force. It’s like I don’t want to live in a town where everyone has guns, I’d like a police force with accountability.
  - zoeysmithe 1y ago
    The war on terror has killed millions of civilians, mostly women and children. Brown University lists excess deaths from the WoT at 4 or 5m. The USA has destabilized many countries and performed coups. It invades and goes to war for its own geopolitical gains and regularly lies why. What you're praising is a horror. Being defenseless hoping an angry 800lbs gorilla will be kind to you must be the worst system imaginable. A balance of power both economic and arms is going to be the best way forward because now that gorilla knows it can't just do what it wants anymore.

Even if you can’t move all of it now the basic building blocks like VMs and databases aren’t exactly cutting edge tech so should be doable.

by Havoc 1y ago

Even if you can’t move all of it now the basic building blocks like VMs and databases aren’t exactly cutting edge tech so should be doable.

toomuchtodo 1y ago

People overestimate the technology required to build the utility stack, from physical servers to the first bit from an http server. Is it easy? It's straightforward. Can there be downtime? Tell me what us-east-1, Azure Front Door, Github, etc have looked like lately. Everyone uses cloud as an excuse for more uptime, but they're still down frequently, so this argument doesn't hold water. Eat some downtime, you're going to regardless if you manage your own infra or outsource. Can't build it yourself? That's fine, people like Oxide can build it for you, and you own all of it. The profits you don't pay to hyperscalers is investment in your sovereignty. Easy case to prioritize stakeholders over Google, Microsoft, and AWS shareholders, and the US government's ability to rug pull your access and data at any time. The argument isn't bare metal vs virtualized; the argument is "Do you own it?" You are spending a certain amount no matter what to get the technology capabilities needed. 37signals Leaves the Cloud - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33260061 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33260061 - October 2022 https://blog.codinghorror.com/the-cloud-is-just-someone-elses-computer/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/the-cloud-is-just-someone-else... https://oxide.computer/ https://oxide.computer/ (have built cloud infra for startups, fortune 100s, financial services firms, and on prem infra for high energy physics, non profits, public goods, etc; thoughts and opinions always my own)

graemep 1y ago
> Eat some downtime, you're going to regardless if you manage your own infra or outsource. If its outsourced the downtime is someone else's fault. People prefer opex to capex. You are right at a technical level, but short termism and personal incentives trump those.
- toomuchtodo 1y ago
  > You are right at a technical level, but short termism and personal incentives trump those. Agreed. Never let a crisis go to waste. This is that crisis. Like bankruptcy, change happens gradually, then suddenly.

zoeysmithe 1y ago

Both those things are like the root account to one's data. If there is a hypervisor backdoor (or if your vendor is told by the government to stop giving you updates or sell you product, or even pull your keys) then its game over. DB's too because they're so mission critical and not trivial to move off. As far as cloud goes, how many shops are now looking at bringing stuff back in because eventually cloud maximizes its profit margins and captured clients can't say no to ever increasing prices. I imagine leaving the US-owned cloud also means an opportunity to reconfigure what is on the cloud and if it needs to be there. Here's hope desktop linux comes back into play. As for Munich moving back to windows, who knows how much of that was 'checkbook diplomacy' of the USA demanding they go back to US products or the US will pull unrelated support or whatever. Now that the USA has become isolationist, if not a threat to the EU, those favors/checks aren't being cashed anymore. So much of this is not a meritocracy but instead the crony capitalism that defines the modern world. Maybe there's potential for actual merit now that the USA is losing global prominence in so many ways. The EU liberated from US influence can lead to great things and this is a good start. For all the doom and gloom of politics today, the US's century of influence ending can only be a universally good thing, imho.

Herring 1y ago
I’m the last person you can call a fan of US foreign policy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the_U... But for global stability it’s best if there was some kind of entity with a legitimate monopoly on force. It’s like I don’t want to live in a town where everyone has guns, I’d like a police force with accountability.
- zoeysmithe 1y ago
  The war on terror has killed millions of civilians, mostly women and children. Brown University lists excess deaths from the WoT at 4 or 5m. The USA has destabilized many countries and performed coups. It invades and goes to war for its own geopolitical gains and regularly lies why. What you're praising is a horror. Being defenseless hoping an angry 800lbs gorilla will be kind to you must be the worst system imaginable. A balance of power both economic and arms is going to be the best way forward because now that gorilla knows it can't just do what it wants anymore.