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> Has storage been solved yet? In general yes, grid solar + grid batteries are cheaper than any peaking power plants. So now 24/7 batteries + wind + solar gen
by Retric 1y ago
> Has storage been solved yet?
In general yes, grid solar + grid batteries are cheaper than any peaking power plants. So now 24/7 batteries + wind + solar generally outcompetes nuclear, coal, or natural gas on price as long as there’s no tariffs involved.
This isn’t enough to make batteries + solar viable in Alaska but long distance transmission lines could solve that issue cost effectively.
- seanmcdirmid 1y agoSolar is actually viable in places like Alaska and Finland. It just isn't viable in the winter, but in the summer it is extra viable. Greenhouses (another form of solar) also work wonders in Alaska, and outside they can grow the biggest pumpkins you'll ever see anywhere.
- AnimalMuppet 1y agoOK, but nobody has enough batteries to store enough for the winter. Overnight? Sure. Winter? That's a whole different deal.
- seanmcdirmid 1y agoFirst, the only reason solar isn't so common in Alaska is that hydro is even easier to get power from, so your outback communities will often use small scale hydro instead of solar (especially in southeast Alaska). Communities in the north will use diesel generators in the winter (nothing else is viable). Again, I assume you are talking about off grid communities, which is basically all of them except a few cities (and most cities have their own grids disconnected from the rest, especially Southeast Alaska).
- cachius 1y agoThat's why you generate hydrogen during summer for gas power plants during winter.
- somanyphotons 1y agoWhat mass of hydrogen is needed per house to last a winter?
- zparky 1y agorough math: 1000 kwh / mo / house, ~30kwh/kg hydrogen so 30kg H per mo per house. idk how long winters would be, 8 months is 240kg of hydrogen, which if compressed to 10 bar is roughly 300 cubic meters of storage. kinda a lot of space. compressed to 100 bar is like 10kg/m3 which sounds more manageable
- Retric 1y agoRound trip efficiency on hydrogen is horrible. Local hydrogen production could make sense because importing fuel into remote off grid communities is extremely expensive. Rather than building 10x as much solar in the north + battery systems + winter hydrogen storage etc long distance HVDC to cities and the surrounding grid just makes so much more sense. Even better because the state is huge and the population is tiny they can go nearly 100% hydro. Where batteries could be useful is operating those long distance power lines at nearly 100% 24/7 then load shifting via batteries to match local demand.
- pfdietz 1y ago> Round trip efficiency on hydrogen is horrible. For seasonal storage, round trip efficiency is mostly irrelevant; the relevant metric is capex per unit of stored energy.
- Retric 1y agoThat could be generally true, but it’s not true in this specific instance. A panel in Alaska only collects so much sunlight over the summer before considering efficiency losses from Hydrogen. It would require buying panels that effectively get ~1 month of use over the entire year due to efficiency losses + limited gathering period, and solar isn’t that cheap. So in Alaska you’re just better off only using panels directly in the summer which at least provide several months of electricity per year. In say Texas on the other hand you get energy from a panel year round so a marginal panel purchased to generate hydrogen at say 20% round trip efficiency gets 30% * 9 months + say 70% of average production for the 3 winter months = 4.8 months of winter electricity per year. Of course you also need to pay for the hydrogen generating machine and the hydrogen burning device, but that’s not necessarily problematic.
- namibj 1y agoIn the lower 48 you'd just size the solar to handle winter and find a way to use summer electricity, like electro winning metal from ore or running low-capex high-power chemical synthesis steps like making ammonia without natural gas. Having energy cost related scheduled (winter) downtime gives the plants proper maintenance windows. With free power but only during surplus peaks in summer when the grid can't transmit a large utility solar farm's entire production, and the day/night/weekday time shifting batteries are also already fully active, you could (looks like the math checks out) electrolytically refine iron ore into iron metal (for later smelting in an arc furnace) just about cost-competitively with (coal-fired) blast furnace operation. The key is to skip most overhead by operating them only to eat otherwise-curtailed production and connecting them to the DC bus between the MPPT and the grid inverter (same as the day/night shifting battery).
- skrause 1y agoYou always combine solar power with wind power, that already solves more than 90% of the storage problem. In places like Europe the darker winter is usually quite windy. For example, last Sunday Germany covered more than 100% of its own power load with renewables even though winter is approaching. Only a small part of that was solar power, most electricity was generated by wind turbines: https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/power/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&week=43 https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/power/chart.htm?l=en&c...
- pfdietz 1y agoUsually that works, but not always. It's the last part that's the killer. When you optimize against historical weather data in Europe to produce steady power at minimum cost, a wind/solar/battery/hydrogen system cuts the cost in half compared to wind/solar/battery. As I said elsewhere I'm thinking ultra low capex thermal storage will edge out hydrogen here, though.
- namibj 1y agoYou can just put solar fences in Alaska.... Half of Germany is north of the straight part of the US/Canada border...
- seanmcdirmid 1y agoKetchikan is about the same latitude as Copenhagen. You actually have enough easy to access hydro on the panhandle that solar isn't going to be very competitive. Fairbanks and up is where solar is viable in the summer and not in the winter.
- candiddevmike 1y agoAre batteries cheaper than pumping water up hill?
- evan_ 1y agoif you don't have a hill, certainly
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- seanmcdirmid 1y agoDo you have a place to store that water up hill already? Then no. Don't have a place to store that water already? Then yes. Pumped storage is great if you have reservoirs or a place to put them, and the water to pump between them. But those conditions don't really happen that often.
- wood_spirit 1y agoI have seen some really shockingly cheap homemade stored water systems on YouTube (I’m into that kind of thing so there’s a lot of it in my feed) so if you own a hill and have sufficient recharge even in winter then it’s super cheap install that makes even a meagre battery seem expensive. But you have to have the terrain.
- Retric 1y agoCheap in terms of capital, but home hydro tends to take quite a bit of labor and maintenance over time. If you look at that stuff as a fun hobby or YouTube content it’s no big deal, but economically your labor isn’t free. I’ve got an usually good location for small scale hydro, there was even a mill on the property, but it just doesn’t seem worth it to me.
- wood_spirit 1y agoYeah different perspectives. Some people find diy easy and are quite happy to tinker with things. Where I live is currently suffering a wild boar infestation and I’m happily setting up an electric fence system for basically no money at all whilst a neighbour just paid a lot of money for someone to install it for them. I wish I had a good property for hydro or stored water batteries!
- daveguy 1y ago*as long as there's no tariffs involved and no entrenched power monopolies taxing folks for installing solar. Looking at you, Southern Power Company.