3 ms·

Honestly getting to mess with internal implementation details is my favorite part of using Zig's standard library. I'm working on a multithreaded interpreter ri

Honestly getting to mess with internal implementation details is my favorite part of using Zig's standard library. I'm working on a multithreaded interpreter right now, where each object has a unique index, so I need effectively a 4GB array to store them all. It's generally considered rude to allocate that all at once, so I'm using 4GB of virtual memory. I can literally just swap out std.MultiArrayList's backing array with vmem, set its capacity, and use all of its features, except now with virtual memory[1]. [1] https://github.com/smj-edison/zicl/blob/bacb08153305d5ba97fcb886a193a8e029197831/src/Heap.zig#L258 https://github.com/smj-edison/zicl/blob/bacb08153305d5ba97fc...

flohofwoe 1y ago
I would at least like to see some sort of naming convention for implementation-private properties, maybe like: const Bla = struct { // public access intended bla: i32, blub: i32, // here be dragons _private: struct { x: i32, y: i32, }, }; ...that way you can still access and mess up those 'private' items, but at least it's clear now which of the struct items are part of the 'public API contract' and which are considered internal implementation details which may change on a whim.
- smj-edison 1y ago
  Aah, that's a good point. I suppose you could argue that the doc notes indicate whether something it meant to be accessed directly, like when ArrayList mentions "This field is intended to be accessed directly.", but that's really hard to determine at a glance.
- KallDrexx 1y ago
  This is my main frustration with the push back against visibility modifiers. It's treated as an all or nothing approach, that any support for visibility modifiers locks anyone out from touching those fields. It could just be a compiler error/warning that has to be explicitly opted into to touch those fields. This allows you to say "I know this is normally a footgun to modify these fields, and I might be violating an invariant condition, but I am know what I'm doing".
  - bsder 1y ago
    "Visibility" invariably bites you in the ass at some point. See: Rust, newtypes and the Orphan rule, for example. As such, I'm happy to not have visibility modifiers at all. I do absolutely agree that "std" needs a good design pass to make it consistent--groveling in ".len" fields instead of ".len()" functions is definitely a bad idea. However, the nice part about Zig is that replacement doesn't need extra compiler support. Anyone can do that pass and everyone can then import and use it. > This allows you to say "I know this is normally a footgun to modify these fields, and I might be violating an invariant condition, but I am know what I'm doing". Welcome to "Zig will not have warnings." That's why it's all or nothing. It's the single thing that absolutely grinds my gears about Zig. However, it's also probably the single thing that can be relaxed at a later date and not completely change the language. Consequently, I'm willing to put up with it given the rest of the goodness I get.
  - flohofwoe 1y ago
    Tbf, C++/C# style public/private/protected is definitely too restricted in many situations, and other more flexible approaches are pretty much still research territory.
    - int_19h 1y ago
      They could do something like OCaml modules and signatures but more permissive. Module author writes the public signature and that's what the type checker runs against, but if you want, you can "downcast" the module to the actual signature, revealing implementation details.
- pixelpoet 1y ago
  How do you cope with the lack of vector operators? I am basically only writing vector code all day and night, and the lack of infix operators for vectors is just as unacceptable as not having them for normal ints and floats would be. Nobody is asking for Pizza * Weather && (Lizard + Sleep), that strawman argument to justify ints and floats as the only algebraic types is infuriating :( I'd love to read a blog post about your Zig setup and workflow BTW.
  - smj-edison 1y ago
    If you want to write really cursed code, you could use comptime to implement a function that takes comptime strings and parses them into vector function calls ;)
    - pixelpoet 1y ago
      I've actually thought about that, and looked a little into canonical/idiomatic ways to implement a DSL in Zig, and didn't find anything small and natural. I just find it intellectually offensive that this extremely short-sighted line is drawn after ints and floats, any other algebraic/number types aren't similarly dignified. If people had to write add(2, mul(3, 4)) etc for ints and floats the language would be used by exactly nobody! But just because particular language designers aren't using complex numbers and vectors all day, they interpret the request as wanting stupid abstract Monkey + Banana * Time or whatever. I really wish more Language People appreciated that there's only really one way to do complex numbers, it's worth doing right once and giving proper operators, too. Sure, use dot(a, b) and cross(a, b) etc, that's fine. The word "number" is literally half of "complex number", and it's not like there are 1024 ways to implement 2D, 3D, 4D vector and complex number addition, subtraction, multiplication, maybe even division. There are many languages one can look to for guidance here, e.g. OpenCL[0] and Odin[1]. [0] OpenCL Quick Reference Card, masterpiece IMO: https://www.khronos.org/files/opencl-1-2-quick-reference-card.pdf https://www.khronos.org/files/opencl-1-2-quick-reference-car... [1] Odin language, specifically the operators: https://odin-lang.org/docs/overview/#operators https://odin-lang.org/docs/overview/#operators
  - flohofwoe 1y ago

flohofwoe 1y ago

I would at least like to see some sort of naming convention for implementation-private properties, maybe like: const Bla = struct { // public access intended bla: i32, blub: i32, // here be dragons _private: struct { x: i32, y: i32, }, }; ...that way you can still access and mess up those 'private' items, but at least it's clear now which of the struct items are part of the 'public API contract' and which are considered internal implementation details which may change on a whim.

smj-edison 1y ago
Aah, that's a good point. I suppose you could argue that the doc notes indicate whether something it meant to be accessed directly, like when ArrayList mentions "This field is intended to be accessed directly.", but that's really hard to determine at a glance.
KallDrexx 1y ago
This is my main frustration with the push back against visibility modifiers. It's treated as an all or nothing approach, that any support for visibility modifiers locks anyone out from touching those fields. It could just be a compiler error/warning that has to be explicitly opted into to touch those fields. This allows you to say "I know this is normally a footgun to modify these fields, and I might be violating an invariant condition, but I am know what I'm doing".
- bsder 1y ago
  "Visibility" invariably bites you in the ass at some point. See: Rust, newtypes and the Orphan rule, for example. As such, I'm happy to not have visibility modifiers at all. I do absolutely agree that "std" needs a good design pass to make it consistent--groveling in ".len" fields instead of ".len()" functions is definitely a bad idea. However, the nice part about Zig is that replacement doesn't need extra compiler support. Anyone can do that pass and everyone can then import and use it. > This allows you to say "I know this is normally a footgun to modify these fields, and I might be violating an invariant condition, but I am know what I'm doing". Welcome to "Zig will not have warnings." That's why it's all or nothing. It's the single thing that absolutely grinds my gears about Zig. However, it's also probably the single thing that can be relaxed at a later date and not completely change the language. Consequently, I'm willing to put up with it given the rest of the goodness I get.
- flohofwoe 1y ago
  Tbf, C++/C# style public/private/protected is definitely too restricted in many situations, and other more flexible approaches are pretty much still research territory.
  - int_19h 1y ago
    They could do something like OCaml modules and signatures but more permissive. Module author writes the public signature and that's what the type checker runs against, but if you want, you can "downcast" the module to the actual signature, revealing implementation details.
pixelpoet 1y ago
How do you cope with the lack of vector operators? I am basically only writing vector code all day and night, and the lack of infix operators for vectors is just as unacceptable as not having them for normal ints and floats would be. Nobody is asking for Pizza * Weather && (Lizard + Sleep), that strawman argument to justify ints and floats as the only algebraic types is infuriating :( I'd love to read a blog post about your Zig setup and workflow BTW.
- smj-edison 1y ago
  If you want to write really cursed code, you could use comptime to implement a function that takes comptime strings and parses them into vector function calls ;)
  - pixelpoet 1y ago
    I've actually thought about that, and looked a little into canonical/idiomatic ways to implement a DSL in Zig, and didn't find anything small and natural. I just find it intellectually offensive that this extremely short-sighted line is drawn after ints and floats, any other algebraic/number types aren't similarly dignified. If people had to write add(2, mul(3, 4)) etc for ints and floats the language would be used by exactly nobody! But just because particular language designers aren't using complex numbers and vectors all day, they interpret the request as wanting stupid abstract Monkey + Banana * Time or whatever. I really wish more Language People appreciated that there's only really one way to do complex numbers, it's worth doing right once and giving proper operators, too. Sure, use dot(a, b) and cross(a, b) etc, that's fine. The word "number" is literally half of "complex number", and it's not like there are 1024 ways to implement 2D, 3D, 4D vector and complex number addition, subtraction, multiplication, maybe even division. There are many languages one can look to for guidance here, e.g. OpenCL[0] and Odin[1]. [0] OpenCL Quick Reference Card, masterpiece IMO: https://www.khronos.org/files/opencl-1-2-quick-reference-card.pdf https://www.khronos.org/files/opencl-1-2-quick-reference-car... [1] Odin language, specifically the operators: https://odin-lang.org/docs/overview/#operators https://odin-lang.org/docs/overview/#operators
- flohofwoe 1y ago