7 ms·

Just use linux. You learn it once and it works forever.

BirAdam 1y ago
If only this were true. Stuff in Linux changes. Not quite as frequently, but it does change and in major ways that require significant amounts of relearning. Example 1: audio OSS -> Alsa -> Random Layers on top of Alsa -> Pulse -> Pipewire Example 2: init SysV -> OpenRC || runit || s6 || upstart -> systemd Examples 3: desktops KDE 1/2/3 -> KDE 4/Plasma GNOME 1 -> GNOME 2 -> GNOME3+ Example 4: networking ifconfig -> ip Example 5: Xfree86 -> Xorg -> Wayland Now, it's important to note that people were attempting to resolve issues. The transitions weren't always clean, but the results are usually great. For example, moving to pipewire is possible the greatest advancement of audio ever. Linux audio finally doesn't suck. Xfree86 to Xorg was likewise great. For the last few years of X11, I usually didn't have to modify the config. I kind of don't care about init systems most of the time. The only major complaint for systemd is that disk I/O on embedded systems is kind of an issue, but things like Alpine are better there and Alpine doesn't use systemd. With that said, I think the real issue is that people dislike advancements that break things. Early in Pulse's life, people absolutely hated it. Early in Wayland's life, people absolutely hated it, but it wasn't default so no one complained. With Windows and macOS, stuff changes seemingly constantly and randomly and breaks things, so people hate it. Saying, however, that Linux doesn't change seems a little daft to me. It changes faster than anything else on small levels, and different distributions have breaking changes at different rates.
- wosined 1y ago
  You don't have to install gnome, kde, wayland or systemd. You are just talking about your preferences masked as something that “had to be done”. I only had to fiddle with audio on the raspberry pi when connecting bluetooth. Everything works out of the box nowadays. If wayland was a good protocol, the user would not have to know about it.
  - BirAdam 1y ago
    I wasn't saying that anything had to be done, nor was I saying that each change was good or bad (except for the audio and Xfree86 to Xorg). My preferences really don't enter into it. I was saying that Linux systems do indeed change, and the idea of learn once and you're done is nonsense.
- nottorp 1y ago
  Yes, Pulse pushed me to make my first hackintosh and move from Linux on the desktop to Mac OS on the desktop. Good job, Poettering.
vbezhenar 1y ago
Linux is so not polished. Just few days ago something updated and my virtual desktop switching now behaves erratically. I'm pressing <Super>+<1>, it changes to desktop 1 with vscode opened. And immediately it starts typing "1" into vscode. Seems to bug with all X applications. I fixed it for vscode to make it work under wayland, but now it doesn't draw border around vscode window. Another irritation and I have other X apps. It works, it's free, I love it. But it's so not polished and it'll never be. I miss macOS polish, where basic things just work.
- wosined 1y ago
  > virtual desktops > vscode > wayland Sounds like you have a misconfigured system. Jokes aside, this looks like a bug in your WM. Macs may be more polished, but my point was not about polish.
- dangus 1y ago
  > I miss macOS polish, where basic things just work. Funny, since iOS 26 my iPhone has been failing to bring up the screenshot UI half to time, completely broke guided access, and now I can’t figure out how to close all tabs in safari because all the buttons make no sense anymore. Oh yeah and my battery life sucks now. You should look into atomic Linux distros. They take getting used to but they’re awesome for being stable and easy to revert changes.
pjmlp 1y ago
Forever only if one never updates.
- wosined 1y ago
  Depends on the distro.
  - pjmlp 1y ago
    Using Linux since 1995, I wonder which one from Distrowatch is safe from this.
    - wosined 1y ago
      I did not mean actually forever. The sun will burn out in the future.
mxey 1y ago
Linux is by far the OS with the highest amount of churn.
- wosined 1y ago
  I use less than 10 gui programs on linux. They never change. The command line programs do not change either. Unless the devs get a dumb idea to rewrite them in Rust, because they sunk so many hours into learning it.
joezydeco 1y ago
My company only hands out Macs. So I use Linux in a VM for embedded development. Works great. And now I'm getting an Apple Silicon machine in a few months to replace my Intel Mac and I'm out of luck.

If only this were true. Stuff in Linux changes. Not quite as frequently, but it does change and in major ways that require significant amounts of relearning. Example 1: audio OSS -> Alsa -> Random Layers on top of Alsa -> Pulse -> Pipewire Example 2: init SysV -> OpenRC || runit || s6 || upstart -> systemd Examples 3: desktops KDE 1/2/3 -> KDE 4/Plasma GNOME 1 -> GNOME 2 -> GNOME3+ Example 4: networking ifconfig -> ip Example 5: Xfree86 -> Xorg -> Wayland Now, it's important to note that people were attempting to resolve issues. The transitions weren't always clean, but the results are usually great. For example, moving to pipewire is possible the greatest advancement of audio ever. Linux audio finally doesn't suck. Xfree86 to Xorg was likewise great. For the last few years of X11, I usually didn't have to modify the config. I kind of don't care about init systems most of the time. The only major complaint for systemd is that disk I/O on embedded systems is kind of an issue, but things like Alpine are better there and Alpine doesn't use systemd. With that said, I think the real issue is that people dislike advancements that break things. Early in Pulse's life, people absolutely hated it. Early in Wayland's life, people absolutely hated it, but it wasn't default so no one complained. With Windows and macOS, stuff changes seemingly constantly and randomly and breaks things, so people hate it. Saying, however, that Linux doesn't change seems a little daft to me. It changes faster than anything else on small levels, and different distributions have breaking changes at different rates.

wosined 1y ago
You don't have to install gnome, kde, wayland or systemd. You are just talking about your preferences masked as something that “had to be done”. I only had to fiddle with audio on the raspberry pi when connecting bluetooth. Everything works out of the box nowadays. If wayland was a good protocol, the user would not have to know about it.
- BirAdam 1y ago
  I wasn't saying that anything had to be done, nor was I saying that each change was good or bad (except for the audio and Xfree86 to Xorg). My preferences really don't enter into it. I was saying that Linux systems do indeed change, and the idea of learn once and you're done is nonsense.
nottorp 1y ago
Yes, Pulse pushed me to make my first hackintosh and move from Linux on the desktop to Mac OS on the desktop. Good job, Poettering.

vbezhenar 1y ago

Linux is so not polished. Just few days ago something updated and my virtual desktop switching now behaves erratically. I'm pressing <Super>+<1>, it changes to desktop 1 with vscode opened. And immediately it starts typing "1" into vscode. Seems to bug with all X applications. I fixed it for vscode to make it work under wayland, but now it doesn't draw border around vscode window. Another irritation and I have other X apps. It works, it's free, I love it. But it's so not polished and it'll never be. I miss macOS polish, where basic things just work.

wosined 1y ago
> virtual desktops > vscode > wayland Sounds like you have a misconfigured system. Jokes aside, this looks like a bug in your WM. Macs may be more polished, but my point was not about polish.
dangus 1y ago
> I miss macOS polish, where basic things just work. Funny, since iOS 26 my iPhone has been failing to bring up the screenshot UI half to time, completely broke guided access, and now I can’t figure out how to close all tabs in safari because all the buttons make no sense anymore. Oh yeah and my battery life sucks now. You should look into atomic Linux distros. They take getting used to but they’re awesome for being stable and easy to revert changes.

pjmlp 1y ago

Forever only if one never updates.

wosined 1y ago
Depends on the distro.
- pjmlp 1y ago
  Using Linux since 1995, I wonder which one from Distrowatch is safe from this.
  - wosined 1y ago
    I did not mean actually forever. The sun will burn out in the future.

mxey 1y ago

Linux is by far the OS with the highest amount of churn.

wosined 1y ago
I use less than 10 gui programs on linux. They never change. The command line programs do not change either. Unless the devs get a dumb idea to rewrite them in Rust, because they sunk so many hours into learning it.

joezydeco 1y ago

My company only hands out Macs. So I use Linux in a VM for embedded development. Works great. And now I'm getting an Apple Silicon machine in a few months to replace my Intel Mac and I'm out of luck.