3 ms·

I was told that you want lights on all 3 phases so that you can see spinning things spin. If the lights are on single phase, they will dim 120 times a second, a

by genter 11mo ago

I was told that you want lights on all 3 phases so that you can see spinning things spin. If the lights are on single phase, they will dim 120 times a second, and the strobe effect can cause spinning things to appear stationary. With 3 phase, at least 1/3 of the lights are lit all the time.

marcosdumay 11mo ago
That's a valid reason too. In an industrial environment full of rotating machines, thinking something is stationary because it's on the grid's natural frequency can be lethal. It's way less of a problem with modern machinery, and leds will blink in uncorrelated phases in a frequency that is different from the grid's anyway.
- wtallis 11mo ago
  For residential lighting running off a single-phase supply, there are some annoying LED bulbs with simple half-wave rectification that strobe at the grid frequency with less than a 50% duty cycle (often seen with bulbs emulating vintage exposed-filament bulbs with no frosted glass). It would be interesting to see how much less annoying that kind of flicker is when you have a three-phase supply to a light fixture, so that at least one set of LEDs was illuminated at all times.
  - quickthrowman 11mo ago
    There are no light fixtures that use three-phase power. At least that’s my belief, as I’ve never heard of one or seen one and I’ve been working in the electrical industry for almost a decade. You could theoretically arrange three lampholders like a delta or wye transformer [0] and connect a phase to each one and all three lamps will be lit, but the lampholders will be energized, so make sure to wear voltage-rated gloves when changing out the lamps ;) This is how three-phase resistive heaters are wired, the drop in ampacity and large resistive heating loads make it worth using three phase since ampacity is 1.73 times lower than it would be on a three-phase circuit than it would be at the same voltage as a single-phase circuit. In the US, there are 208V single-phase and 480V single-phase lights that use two of the three phases. In practice, indoor lighting is either 277V (line to neutral on a 480V service) or 120V (line to neutral on a 208V service). Most commercial LED fixtures can use any voltage between 120V to 277V single-phase. 480V single phase is used for some pole lighting with long runs of conductors to handle voltage drop. Anything over 277V has to be elevated at least 22 feet off the ground per the NEC. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta–wye_transformer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta–wye_transformer
ssl-3 11mo ago
How did that work, do you suppose? How does one connect a lamp to 3-phase power? Are/were there 3-phase fluorescent tubes available? Or are we relying on the spinny-thing that is to be observed to somehow be illuminated by all three phases, with three lamps or fixtures, simultaneously? Without such malarcky as shadows or inverse-square to muddy our vision? Or maybe a multiplicity of single fixtures with 3 tubes -- one tube per each phase? And even then: Doesn't it still strobe somewhat at (50*3*2)=300 or (60*3*2)=360Hz, instead of the 100- or 120-Hz that a shop lit by a single phase might provide? (LEDs are out-of-scope of this question, of course: Line-voltage LED lamps can have integrated electronics and can therefore have diode elements that are driven by things that approach [or even achieve] DC, which changes the rules. And, of course: Incandescent lamps have enough persistence that stroboscopic effects are generally not an issue with a human eye.)
- sleepy_keita 11mo ago
  They're saying that you have 3 banks of lights, each connected to one phase of the 3 phase input. That way, when only 1 bank goes out, it's easy to see that one phase is out.
- OJFord 11mo ago
  > Or are we relying on the spinny-thing that is to be observed to somehow be illuminated by all three phases, with three lamps or fixtures, simultaneously? That's exactly what they mean, yes. Some lights on L1, some L2, some L3. > And even then: Doesn't it still strobe somewhat at (5032)=300 or (6032)=360Hz, instead of the 100- or 120-Hz that a shop lit by a single phase might provide? No, because the phases are overlapping, there is no point in time where they're all off. There'd be local dimming of course, depending on their position etc., but light for all of the second.
- noir_lord 11mo ago
  > How does one connect a lamp to 3-phase power? You typically connect 1/3 of lamps on one phase, one third on another and so on. In the UK we use a 230V single phase system for most things (industrial/commercial often use 400V) (if all three phases are in use it's 400V - you may see it as 415V but we harmonised with Europe to 400V) so lighting expects that 230V anyway, you still have a common ground, you just run the live for each phase to the lamp/light. Power delivery to homes is in effect a single phase out of a three phase supply with each house (often but not always) wired in sequence, so house 1 is Phase 1, house 2 is Phase 2, house 3 is Phase 3, house 4 is phase 1 and repeat. We have standard colors for this as well (as do most jurisdictions), neutral is always blue but the phases are Brown, Black and Grey When I trained as an industrial electrician they where different colors, they changed in 2006 so that just makes me feel old (used to be Red, Yellow, Blue with Black for Neutral).
deleted 11mo ago
[deleted]
hylaride 11mo ago
Back in the analog TV days, I could see the flicker on the 50hz PAL/SECAM signals whenever I visited Europe, especially when the screen was white and in my peripheral vision. I always wondered why it didn't drive everybody nuts, but then I got used to it. I did always wonder if there was a way they could have eliminated that (maybe they did in more expensive TVs that fired off at double the reference signal and not in cheap TVs in hotels/bars?).
- noir_lord 11mo ago
  simple answer is grid frequency in europe is 50hz, in the US and Canada it's 60hz. Early TV's synchronised to the grid frequency (and drew the entire screen on each cycle) - also remember TV's where analogue to start with (and operated at large voltages/transformers) so if they didn't sync with the grid electrical noise becomes a big problem with the power supply. In monitor terms it reduced jitter.
  - hylaride 11mo ago
    Yeah, I knew why. :-) My brain immediately went into "solving" mode, though.
- anikom15 11mo ago
  The 100 Hz TVs weren’t that common and had other issues. They weren’t strictly superior. TVs were supposed to use a different set of phosphors for 50 Hz that were less flickery at 60 Hz but in practice I don’t know if tube producers bothered to have different sets for the different markets.

by genter 11mo ago

marcosdumay 11mo ago

That's a valid reason too. In an industrial environment full of rotating machines, thinking something is stationary because it's on the grid's natural frequency can be lethal. It's way less of a problem with modern machinery, and leds will blink in uncorrelated phases in a frequency that is different from the grid's anyway.

wtallis 11mo ago
For residential lighting running off a single-phase supply, there are some annoying LED bulbs with simple half-wave rectification that strobe at the grid frequency with less than a 50% duty cycle (often seen with bulbs emulating vintage exposed-filament bulbs with no frosted glass). It would be interesting to see how much less annoying that kind of flicker is when you have a three-phase supply to a light fixture, so that at least one set of LEDs was illuminated at all times.
- quickthrowman 11mo ago
  There are no light fixtures that use three-phase power. At least that’s my belief, as I’ve never heard of one or seen one and I’ve been working in the electrical industry for almost a decade. You could theoretically arrange three lampholders like a delta or wye transformer [0] and connect a phase to each one and all three lamps will be lit, but the lampholders will be energized, so make sure to wear voltage-rated gloves when changing out the lamps ;) This is how three-phase resistive heaters are wired, the drop in ampacity and large resistive heating loads make it worth using three phase since ampacity is 1.73 times lower than it would be on a three-phase circuit than it would be at the same voltage as a single-phase circuit. In the US, there are 208V single-phase and 480V single-phase lights that use two of the three phases. In practice, indoor lighting is either 277V (line to neutral on a 480V service) or 120V (line to neutral on a 208V service). Most commercial LED fixtures can use any voltage between 120V to 277V single-phase. 480V single phase is used for some pole lighting with long runs of conductors to handle voltage drop. Anything over 277V has to be elevated at least 22 feet off the ground per the NEC. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta–wye_transformer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta–wye_transformer

ssl-3 11mo ago

How did that work, do you suppose? How does one connect a lamp to 3-phase power? Are/were there 3-phase fluorescent tubes available? Or are we relying on the spinny-thing that is to be observed to somehow be illuminated by all three phases, with three lamps or fixtures, simultaneously? Without such malarcky as shadows or inverse-square to muddy our vision? Or maybe a multiplicity of single fixtures with 3 tubes -- one tube per each phase? And even then: Doesn't it still strobe somewhat at (50*3*2)=300 or (60*3*2)=360Hz, instead of the 100- or 120-Hz that a shop lit by a single phase might provide? (LEDs are out-of-scope of this question, of course: Line-voltage LED lamps can have integrated electronics and can therefore have diode elements that are driven by things that approach [or even achieve] DC, which changes the rules. And, of course: Incandescent lamps have enough persistence that stroboscopic effects are generally not an issue with a human eye.)

sleepy_keita 11mo ago
They're saying that you have 3 banks of lights, each connected to one phase of the 3 phase input. That way, when only 1 bank goes out, it's easy to see that one phase is out.
OJFord 11mo ago
> Or are we relying on the spinny-thing that is to be observed to somehow be illuminated by all three phases, with three lamps or fixtures, simultaneously? That's exactly what they mean, yes. Some lights on L1, some L2, some L3. > And even then: Doesn't it still strobe somewhat at (5032)=300 or (6032)=360Hz, instead of the 100- or 120-Hz that a shop lit by a single phase might provide? No, because the phases are overlapping, there is no point in time where they're all off. There'd be local dimming of course, depending on their position etc., but light for all of the second.
noir_lord 11mo ago
> How does one connect a lamp to 3-phase power? You typically connect 1/3 of lamps on one phase, one third on another and so on. In the UK we use a 230V single phase system for most things (industrial/commercial often use 400V) (if all three phases are in use it's 400V - you may see it as 415V but we harmonised with Europe to 400V) so lighting expects that 230V anyway, you still have a common ground, you just run the live for each phase to the lamp/light. Power delivery to homes is in effect a single phase out of a three phase supply with each house (often but not always) wired in sequence, so house 1 is Phase 1, house 2 is Phase 2, house 3 is Phase 3, house 4 is phase 1 and repeat. We have standard colors for this as well (as do most jurisdictions), neutral is always blue but the phases are Brown, Black and Grey When I trained as an industrial electrician they where different colors, they changed in 2006 so that just makes me feel old (used to be Red, Yellow, Blue with Black for Neutral).

deleted 11mo ago

[deleted]

hylaride 11mo ago

Back in the analog TV days, I could see the flicker on the 50hz PAL/SECAM signals whenever I visited Europe, especially when the screen was white and in my peripheral vision. I always wondered why it didn't drive everybody nuts, but then I got used to it. I did always wonder if there was a way they could have eliminated that (maybe they did in more expensive TVs that fired off at double the reference signal and not in cheap TVs in hotels/bars?).

noir_lord 11mo ago
simple answer is grid frequency in europe is 50hz, in the US and Canada it's 60hz. Early TV's synchronised to the grid frequency (and drew the entire screen on each cycle) - also remember TV's where analogue to start with (and operated at large voltages/transformers) so if they didn't sync with the grid electrical noise becomes a big problem with the power supply. In monitor terms it reduced jitter.
- hylaride 11mo ago
  Yeah, I knew why. :-) My brain immediately went into "solving" mode, though.
anikom15 11mo ago
The 100 Hz TVs weren’t that common and had other issues. They weren’t strictly superior. TVs were supposed to use a different set of phosphors for 50 Hz that were less flickery at 60 Hz but in practice I don’t know if tube producers bothered to have different sets for the different markets.