5 ms·

Nokia today is the combination of the network businesses of Nokia, Siemens, Alcatel and Lucent. They have substantial operations in North America. T-Mobile use

by pavlov 1y ago

Nokia today is the combination of the network businesses of Nokia, Siemens, Alcatel and Lucent. They have substantial operations in North America. T-Mobile uses primarily their hardware. Nokia still operates Bell Labs which came originally from AT&T via Lucent. As the other global options for network hardware are Ericsson, Samsung and Huawei, Nokia is the closest to a “Made in USA” solution. Its HQ is in Finland but at least it’s a NATO country now. So they’re more important to US infrastructure than might appear at first glance.

Imustaskforhelp 1y ago
Ericsson is swedish Samsung is south korean I can agree that Huawei is chinese so that's a bad choice But why is Ericsson(swedish), Samsung(south korean) not considered made in US in the sense that atleast south korea has strong relations with america iirc and also I just recently checked and it seems that sweden has also become a part of nato. So some of these can be just as good. Although I still agree that Nokia might be important in general but I just wanted to point/question it out I suppose.
- nine_k 1y ago
  UPDATE: the production facilities seem to be closed; only office buildings remain somewhere. Per Wikipedia [1], Lucent's factories and offices are^W were situated in places like Murray Hill and Mount Olive, NJ, North Andover, MA, Reading, PA, and a bunch of other places in the US. I think it makes^W made Nokia, which owns Lucent properties, "more US" than, say Ericsson and Samsung, until these facilities were closed. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucent_Technologies#Divisions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucent_Technologies#Divisions
moralestapia 1y ago
>Nokia, Siemens, Alcatel and Lucent That's an amazing trove of IP!
shrubble 1y ago
A large number of telecom companies have Alcatel routers like the 7750 . My personal thought was that the control plane OS was likely based on Plan9, though I never had access to any source code to verify that.
- jesterx 1y ago
  its based on TiMetra's TiMOS, a router startup alcatel acquired around 2013
Cyph0n 1y ago
Why are you forgetting about Cisco, Juniper (now HPE), and Arista - all of which are US companies? Also, why is Nokia closer to the US than Ericsson?
- mixdup 1y ago
  Cisco, Juniper, and Arista make carrier hardware like cell phone radios and controllers and traditional telephone network switches? While there's probably a little overlap in all of their product lines with Nokia (I mean Nokia makes simple ethernet switches so that carriers can buy all their gear from one vendor), most of those companies don't really compete in the same markets as Nokia Cisco isn't selling into T-Mobile and AT&T's customer networks. Nokia isn't selling into JPMorgan's or Walmart's IP networks
  - pavelstoev 1y ago
    Nokia also makes complex backbone carrier-grade network switches based on the Intellectual Property portfolio they acquired from Nortel.
    - mixdup 1y ago
      That kind of stuff is the closest that they would come to compete with the others cited. They're all trying to get into datacenter gear, but Cisco specifically has gotten out of various levels of service provider network gear (they sold off all their cable network stuff, for example) which is where Nokia, Ericsson, etc all make their bread and butter
      - Cyph0n 1y ago
        Cisco is still in the SP networking space, but they’ve been pushing heavily into datacenter and core routers generally (vs. edge which are more common in SP networks). Granted, I only worked as a lowly dev in the Cisco SP routing team, and I haven’t been keeping up to speed with their work.
  - Cyph0n 1y ago
phplovesong 1y ago
What do you imply with "atleast its a nato country"? Its not like finland have ever been anti-west, if this was your point. Nato alone does not imply pro-west (the US/trump leadership being the prime example)
- decimalenough 1y ago
  During the Cold War, Finland was officially neutral, but for pragmatic reasons leaned heavily towards the Soviets in foreign policy. There's even a word for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization
  - vga42 1y ago
    That's not the whole story. Excluding the pro-Soviet fringes, Finland always wanted to be free of Russia. When Soviet Union fell, Finland moved significantly to the west and also started inching towards NATO. But only the real NATO membership significantly diminished the country risk that foreign investors correctly perceived in Finland.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- vga42 1y ago
  It's of course obvious to everyone now that there has been no reason to trust Russia. US investors have been resourceful enough to realize that investing in Finland carried a significant country risk due to Russia, even in times of relative peace. That risk is lesser now thanks to NATO.
- Strom 1y ago
  It's not about being anti-west, it's about the likelyhood of being invaded.
- mft_ 1y ago
  I think the context is clear from what was written: > As the other global options for network hardware are Ericsson, Samsung and Huawei, Nokia is the closest to a “Made in USA” solution. Its HQ is in Finland but at least it’s a NATO country now. i.e. with the current US administration, a "Made in USA" solution to critical infrasctructure would likely be seen as ideal; and viewed through this lens, when the other options come from Sweden, Finland, South Korea, and China, Finland is probably the best option. I didn't read any implied criticism of Finland.
nabla9 1y ago
Nokia expanded into data center networks. Nokia sells optical data center interconnects. They also plan to provide AI services in the Edge, that's why Nvidia invested.
- throwaway290 1y ago
  are you saying nvidia invests into its customer so that the customer will buy more from nvidia? sounds totally not a bubble.
  - nabla9 1y ago
    Nvidia is Nokia customer in data center. AI-RAN is partnership where Nvidia and Nokia will sell to telecoms and private 5G/6G networks.
pjmlp 1y ago
Unless they bought back Siemens into NSN, I think not. I was part of the Nokia => NSN transition, and saw that S change back from Siemens into Solutions, with the money they got back from selling Nokia Mobile to Microsoft.

by pavlov 1y ago

Imustaskforhelp 1y ago

Ericsson is swedish Samsung is south korean I can agree that Huawei is chinese so that's a bad choice But why is Ericsson(swedish), Samsung(south korean) not considered made in US in the sense that atleast south korea has strong relations with america iirc and also I just recently checked and it seems that sweden has also become a part of nato. So some of these can be just as good. Although I still agree that Nokia might be important in general but I just wanted to point/question it out I suppose.

nine_k 1y ago
UPDATE: the production facilities seem to be closed; only office buildings remain somewhere. Per Wikipedia [1], Lucent's factories and offices are^W were situated in places like Murray Hill and Mount Olive, NJ, North Andover, MA, Reading, PA, and a bunch of other places in the US. I think it makes^W made Nokia, which owns Lucent properties, "more US" than, say Ericsson and Samsung, until these facilities were closed. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucent_Technologies#Divisions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucent_Technologies#Divisions

moralestapia 1y ago

>Nokia, Siemens, Alcatel and Lucent That's an amazing trove of IP!

shrubble 1y ago

A large number of telecom companies have Alcatel routers like the 7750 . My personal thought was that the control plane OS was likely based on Plan9, though I never had access to any source code to verify that.

jesterx 1y ago
its based on TiMetra's TiMOS, a router startup alcatel acquired around 2013

Cyph0n 1y ago

Why are you forgetting about Cisco, Juniper (now HPE), and Arista - all of which are US companies? Also, why is Nokia closer to the US than Ericsson?

mixdup 1y ago
Cisco, Juniper, and Arista make carrier hardware like cell phone radios and controllers and traditional telephone network switches? While there's probably a little overlap in all of their product lines with Nokia (I mean Nokia makes simple ethernet switches so that carriers can buy all their gear from one vendor), most of those companies don't really compete in the same markets as Nokia Cisco isn't selling into T-Mobile and AT&T's customer networks. Nokia isn't selling into JPMorgan's or Walmart's IP networks
- pavelstoev 1y ago
  Nokia also makes complex backbone carrier-grade network switches based on the Intellectual Property portfolio they acquired from Nortel.
  - mixdup 1y ago
    That kind of stuff is the closest that they would come to compete with the others cited. They're all trying to get into datacenter gear, but Cisco specifically has gotten out of various levels of service provider network gear (they sold off all their cable network stuff, for example) which is where Nokia, Ericsson, etc all make their bread and butter
    - Cyph0n 1y ago
      Cisco is still in the SP networking space, but they’ve been pushing heavily into datacenter and core routers generally (vs. edge which are more common in SP networks). Granted, I only worked as a lowly dev in the Cisco SP routing team, and I haven’t been keeping up to speed with their work.
- Cyph0n 1y ago

phplovesong 1y ago

What do you imply with "atleast its a nato country"? Its not like finland have ever been anti-west, if this was your point. Nato alone does not imply pro-west (the US/trump leadership being the prime example)

decimalenough 1y ago
During the Cold War, Finland was officially neutral, but for pragmatic reasons leaned heavily towards the Soviets in foreign policy. There's even a word for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization
- vga42 1y ago
  That's not the whole story. Excluding the pro-Soviet fringes, Finland always wanted to be free of Russia. When Soviet Union fell, Finland moved significantly to the west and also started inching towards NATO. But only the real NATO membership significantly diminished the country risk that foreign investors correctly perceived in Finland.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
vga42 1y ago
It's of course obvious to everyone now that there has been no reason to trust Russia. US investors have been resourceful enough to realize that investing in Finland carried a significant country risk due to Russia, even in times of relative peace. That risk is lesser now thanks to NATO.
Strom 1y ago
It's not about being anti-west, it's about the likelyhood of being invaded.
mft_ 1y ago
I think the context is clear from what was written: > As the other global options for network hardware are Ericsson, Samsung and Huawei, Nokia is the closest to a “Made in USA” solution. Its HQ is in Finland but at least it’s a NATO country now. i.e. with the current US administration, a "Made in USA" solution to critical infrasctructure would likely be seen as ideal; and viewed through this lens, when the other options come from Sweden, Finland, South Korea, and China, Finland is probably the best option. I didn't read any implied criticism of Finland.

nabla9 1y ago

Nokia expanded into data center networks. Nokia sells optical data center interconnects. They also plan to provide AI services in the Edge, that's why Nvidia invested.

throwaway290 1y ago
are you saying nvidia invests into its customer so that the customer will buy more from nvidia? sounds totally not a bubble.
- nabla9 1y ago
  Nvidia is Nokia customer in data center. AI-RAN is partnership where Nvidia and Nokia will sell to telecoms and private 5G/6G networks.

pjmlp 1y ago

Unless they bought back Siemens into NSN, I think not. I was part of the Nokia => NSN transition, and saw that S change back from Siemens into Solutions, with the money they got back from selling Nokia Mobile to Microsoft.