5 ms·

The mad king's digital killswitch

76 points by Qem 1y ago

chrisjj 1y ago
> Every device and every service should be designed so that the people who use them have the final say over how they work. Hmm. Even nukes?
- ben_w 1y ago
  The people who use them kinda do have that say.
- aftbit 1y ago
  Especially nukes (or more generally, weapons)! Can you imagine if your government tried to use the weapons it bought from America, only to have them refuse to start because America decided they shouldn't? Or if you're within the US, imagine if the nukes refused to launch because Raytheon or whoever included a digital kill switch? That would completely defeat MAD.
  - georgefrowny 1y ago
    There was a whole drama over exactly this in the Cold War. Permissive Action Links were deeply unpopular with the military because they put control of the weapons with the government, rather than with the relevant commanders. Even when finally mandated, the military set the codes to all zeros.
    - p_l 1y ago
      A significant part of it was that Strategic Air Command was essentially an apocalyptic death cult in many ways and despised anything that would slow down issuance and realisation of order to murder as many civilians as possible in shortest amount of time. Coincidentally, US Navy's PALs never required "keys".
  - IAmBroom 1y ago
    > Can you imagine if your government tried to use the weapons it bought from America, only to have them refuse to start because America decided they shouldn't? Or if you're within the US, imagine if the nukes refused to launch because Raytheon or whoever included a digital kill switch? Yes, and John Lennon even wrote a song about imagining it. > That would completely defeat MAD. And that's a bad thing? Besides, it wouldn't. The threat of MAD is what makes it work, not actual MAD itself. Unless <Bad Actor> confidently controlled that kill switch, the threat would remain.
    - aftbit 1y ago
      If we could trust the people who held the kill switch implicitly, then I think it would be amazing. We cannot, so I think it would be disastrous. I definitely think MAD led to a strategic stability that was better than the alternative. This is why things like missile shields (pure defense) are seen as dangerously aggressive, and why the submarine leg of the triad is so important. If you could be confident that your opponents couldn't actually hit you, you would feel much more comfortable issuing a first strike. The fact that they might have a nuke boat somewhere off your coast means you can never be confident that a counter-force first strike will be effective, so you never do it and the world lives another day.
hermitcrab 1y ago
>Tim Cook (a man who never found a boot he wouldn't lick) I can't imagine Jobs (for all his many flaws) rolling over so easily.
hermitcrab 1y ago
Swapped one mad king for another.
- voidnap 1y ago
  Not even remotely. There is no Obama or Biden counterpart to Trump's extrajudicial killings in the Venezuelan coast. Nor Trump's coercion over private industry through his tariffs and lawsuits. Even the far-right's fictions about foreign leaders buying access to Biden through Hunter is so incredibly tame to how Trump does this stuff in public with his crypto or like when talking to that Indonesian leader the other day -- that whole weird "I am a good boy" thing from Eric Trump. Equivocating these things is a derangement syndrome entirely of its own design.
  - hermitcrab 1y ago
    I agree, but I wasn't referring to a previous US President. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_III https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_III
  - fweimer 1y ago
    > There is no Obama or Biden counterpart to Trump's extrajudicial killings in the Venezuelan coast. Sadly, this isn't really true. The Obama administration had their Terror Tuesdays: https://web.archive.org/web/20120530104348/https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html https://web.archive.org/web/20120530104348/https://www.nytim... The program was only mildly controversial at thetime. The killing not so much—it was more about the alleged presence of a Democratic campaign strategist in those coordination meetings.
    - amalcon 1y ago
      That was very bad, but it was plausibly authorized by Congress (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization_for_Use_of_Military_Force_of_2001 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization_for_Use_of_Milit...). There is no comparable authorization here. There is, to my knowledge, no allegation that these Venezuelans had anything to do with Al Qaida or the Sept. 11 attacks.
linkjuice4all 1y ago
I guess I'm not shocked but this is certainly disappointing. That being said, do you need a native app to provide most of the functionality? It seems like you could do most of this stuff through browser functionality and some kind of distributed hosting. At the very least you could capture basic reporting through simpler mediums like SMS. Unsaid in this article is that these phones quickly become useless if governments are able to just shut off internet connectivity through cell service and perhaps targeted local outages to reduce wifi alternatives. Without some kind of mesh networking it doesn't really matter that Apple and Google already sold you out.
fluidcruft 1y ago
I expected some mention of Musk's comments on why he deserves more Tesla shares > “If we build this robot army, do I have at least a strong influence over this robot army?” he told investors. “Not control, but a strong influence… I don’t feel comfortable building that robot army unless I have a strong influence.” https://futurism.com/robots-and-machines/elon-musk-remarks-robot-army https://futurism.com/robots-and-machines/elon-musk-remarks-r...
aftbit 1y ago
Declaring ICE a "protected class" or a "vulnerable group" is absolutely disgusting. Nobody who has tanks is a vulnerable group.
- unsigner 1y ago
  The ICE has tanks - can you provide a link? Words have meaning. Maybe some armored cars, but tanks?
  - aftbit 1y ago
    I'm not sure exactly what kind of armored vehicles ICE has. I'm pretty sure some of them would qualify as tanks at least in WW1. The war to end all wars... if only. There are actually valid reasons for BORTAC to be armed to the gills, but they're meant to point all that firepower at organized crime (cartels) in the border zone, not Americans in Chicago. But fair argument - words matter. I was being glib with "tanks". What I really mean is that anyone backed by the power of the US government to extrajudiciously kidnap people and deport them without due process is not a vulnerable group (by definition) and should not be a protected class (in my opinion).
    - IAmBroom 1y ago
      > I'm pretty sure some of them would qualify as tanks at least in WW1. Yes, and shotguns would be magical boomsticks in the Trojan Wars. Again, words have meanings. Yours are incorrect, and do not help your cause.
      - aftbit 1y ago
        Except there were no shotguns in the Trojan Wars, and there were tanks in WW1, many less armed and armoured than today's IFVs/APCs. Regardless, the parent poster was right - I cannot find any proof of ICE having modern tanks, just some lighter equipment. And regardless of that, I think my point stands - ICE is emphatically not a vulnerable group, and Google is saying they are because they want Most Favored Company status with our increasingly fascist regime.
instagib 1y ago
You can install 3 non AppStore programs without Jailbreaking onto your iPhone. If you pay $100 per year you can install as many as you want without refreshing and get notifications. For free: connect your phone to a computer once then follow instructions online then refresh it over WiFi once per week. It does it automatically. Hacked games, Spotify premium no ads, YouTube no ads, or whatever app you decide to make on your own.
montyboy_us 1y ago
I love Cory’s writing, but this piece leans a bit too much on the metaphor lacking a bit in the mechanics. The walled gardens, DRM, and jailbreak bans long predate the last two administrations. They’re more business model problems and not new authoritarian inventions. Removing an app isn’t the same as adding a backdoor. I think we need to talk more about the real root issue - its a structural one as old as time - closed ecosystems have/will always create the potential for abuse regardless of who is in power. Now, I'm not sure how we get 'open' ecosystems to a tipping point, but have observed the likes of Apple and Microsoft doing a pretty good job of slowly and steadily 'self-owning'... so maybe it's a waiting game?
- RajT88 1y ago
  > I love Cory’s writing, but this piece leans a bit too much on the metaphor lacking a bit in the mechanics I was a regular on the BoingBoing BBS for many years. Doctorow has gotten kind of click baity and loose with facts the past ~10 years or so.

76 points by Qem 1y ago

> Every device and every service should be designed so that the people who use them have the final say over how they work. Hmm. Even nukes?

ben_w 1y ago
The people who use them kinda do have that say.
aftbit 1y ago
Especially nukes (or more generally, weapons)! Can you imagine if your government tried to use the weapons it bought from America, only to have them refuse to start because America decided they shouldn't? Or if you're within the US, imagine if the nukes refused to launch because Raytheon or whoever included a digital kill switch? That would completely defeat MAD.
- georgefrowny 1y ago
  There was a whole drama over exactly this in the Cold War. Permissive Action Links were deeply unpopular with the military because they put control of the weapons with the government, rather than with the relevant commanders. Even when finally mandated, the military set the codes to all zeros.
  - p_l 1y ago
    A significant part of it was that Strategic Air Command was essentially an apocalyptic death cult in many ways and despised anything that would slow down issuance and realisation of order to murder as many civilians as possible in shortest amount of time. Coincidentally, US Navy's PALs never required "keys".
- IAmBroom 1y ago
  > Can you imagine if your government tried to use the weapons it bought from America, only to have them refuse to start because America decided they shouldn't? Or if you're within the US, imagine if the nukes refused to launch because Raytheon or whoever included a digital kill switch? Yes, and John Lennon even wrote a song about imagining it. > That would completely defeat MAD. And that's a bad thing? Besides, it wouldn't. The threat of MAD is what makes it work, not actual MAD itself. Unless <Bad Actor> confidently controlled that kill switch, the threat would remain.
  - aftbit 1y ago
    If we could trust the people who held the kill switch implicitly, then I think it would be amazing. We cannot, so I think it would be disastrous. I definitely think MAD led to a strategic stability that was better than the alternative. This is why things like missile shields (pure defense) are seen as dangerously aggressive, and why the submarine leg of the triad is so important. If you could be confident that your opponents couldn't actually hit you, you would feel much more comfortable issuing a first strike. The fact that they might have a nuke boat somewhere off your coast means you can never be confident that a counter-force first strike will be effective, so you never do it and the world lives another day.

hermitcrab 1y ago

>Tim Cook (a man who never found a boot he wouldn't lick) I can't imagine Jobs (for all his many flaws) rolling over so easily.

hermitcrab 1y ago

Swapped one mad king for another.

voidnap 1y ago
Not even remotely. There is no Obama or Biden counterpart to Trump's extrajudicial killings in the Venezuelan coast. Nor Trump's coercion over private industry through his tariffs and lawsuits. Even the far-right's fictions about foreign leaders buying access to Biden through Hunter is so incredibly tame to how Trump does this stuff in public with his crypto or like when talking to that Indonesian leader the other day -- that whole weird "I am a good boy" thing from Eric Trump. Equivocating these things is a derangement syndrome entirely of its own design.
- hermitcrab 1y ago
  I agree, but I wasn't referring to a previous US President. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_III https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_III
- fweimer 1y ago
  > There is no Obama or Biden counterpart to Trump's extrajudicial killings in the Venezuelan coast. Sadly, this isn't really true. The Obama administration had their Terror Tuesdays: https://web.archive.org/web/20120530104348/https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html https://web.archive.org/web/20120530104348/https://www.nytim... The program was only mildly controversial at thetime. The killing not so much—it was more about the alleged presence of a Democratic campaign strategist in those coordination meetings.
  - amalcon 1y ago
    That was very bad, but it was plausibly authorized by Congress (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization_for_Use_of_Military_Force_of_2001 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization_for_Use_of_Milit...). There is no comparable authorization here. There is, to my knowledge, no allegation that these Venezuelans had anything to do with Al Qaida or the Sept. 11 attacks.

linkjuice4all 1y ago

I guess I'm not shocked but this is certainly disappointing. That being said, do you need a native app to provide most of the functionality? It seems like you could do most of this stuff through browser functionality and some kind of distributed hosting. At the very least you could capture basic reporting through simpler mediums like SMS. Unsaid in this article is that these phones quickly become useless if governments are able to just shut off internet connectivity through cell service and perhaps targeted local outages to reduce wifi alternatives. Without some kind of mesh networking it doesn't really matter that Apple and Google already sold you out.

fluidcruft 1y ago

I expected some mention of Musk's comments on why he deserves more Tesla shares > “If we build this robot army, do I have at least a strong influence over this robot army?” he told investors. “Not control, but a strong influence… I don’t feel comfortable building that robot army unless I have a strong influence.” https://futurism.com/robots-and-machines/elon-musk-remarks-robot-army https://futurism.com/robots-and-machines/elon-musk-remarks-r...

aftbit 1y ago

Declaring ICE a "protected class" or a "vulnerable group" is absolutely disgusting. Nobody who has tanks is a vulnerable group.

unsigner 1y ago
The ICE has tanks - can you provide a link? Words have meaning. Maybe some armored cars, but tanks?
- aftbit 1y ago
  I'm not sure exactly what kind of armored vehicles ICE has. I'm pretty sure some of them would qualify as tanks at least in WW1. The war to end all wars... if only. There are actually valid reasons for BORTAC to be armed to the gills, but they're meant to point all that firepower at organized crime (cartels) in the border zone, not Americans in Chicago. But fair argument - words matter. I was being glib with "tanks". What I really mean is that anyone backed by the power of the US government to extrajudiciously kidnap people and deport them without due process is not a vulnerable group (by definition) and should not be a protected class (in my opinion).
  - IAmBroom 1y ago
    > I'm pretty sure some of them would qualify as tanks at least in WW1. Yes, and shotguns would be magical boomsticks in the Trojan Wars. Again, words have meanings. Yours are incorrect, and do not help your cause.
    - aftbit 1y ago
      Except there were no shotguns in the Trojan Wars, and there were tanks in WW1, many less armed and armoured than today's IFVs/APCs. Regardless, the parent poster was right - I cannot find any proof of ICE having modern tanks, just some lighter equipment. And regardless of that, I think my point stands - ICE is emphatically not a vulnerable group, and Google is saying they are because they want Most Favored Company status with our increasingly fascist regime.

instagib 1y ago

You can install 3 non AppStore programs without Jailbreaking onto your iPhone. If you pay $100 per year you can install as many as you want without refreshing and get notifications. For free: connect your phone to a computer once then follow instructions online then refresh it over WiFi once per week. It does it automatically. Hacked games, Spotify premium no ads, YouTube no ads, or whatever app you decide to make on your own.

montyboy_us 1y ago

I love Cory’s writing, but this piece leans a bit too much on the metaphor lacking a bit in the mechanics. The walled gardens, DRM, and jailbreak bans long predate the last two administrations. They’re more business model problems and not new authoritarian inventions. Removing an app isn’t the same as adding a backdoor. I think we need to talk more about the real root issue - its a structural one as old as time - closed ecosystems have/will always create the potential for abuse regardless of who is in power. Now, I'm not sure how we get 'open' ecosystems to a tipping point, but have observed the likes of Apple and Microsoft doing a pretty good job of slowly and steadily 'self-owning'... so maybe it's a waiting game?

RajT88 1y ago
> I love Cory’s writing, but this piece leans a bit too much on the metaphor lacking a bit in the mechanics I was a regular on the BoingBoing BBS for many years. Doctorow has gotten kind of click baity and loose with facts the past ~10 years or so.