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> This is an incredibly ignorant take on addiction. It's never a choice - by definition. It isn't that clear cut either way IME. I had a big drinking problem.

> This is an incredibly ignorant take on addiction. It's never a choice - by definition. It isn't that clear cut either way IME. I had a big drinking problem. I was the one that choose to start drinking. I was the one chose to stop drinking. Nobody forced me to go to the bar or the off-licence. I accept for other people it isn't that simple. > Hey, do you want to chat about how when I tried to quit nicotine, I went through 2 weeks of physical and mental hell, how exhausted I felt not being able to sleep more than an hour without waking up, still feeling exhausted, with mental fog so severe that made quitting feel impossible? I had similar issues when I quit drink. Sleep was irregular, I went hot and cold for the first month. I had this like weird wave feeling go through me one night (it the only way I can describe it). I think that took like a month or two.

dns_snek 1y ago
> Nobody forced me to go to the bar or the off-licence. Of course, but that doesn't mean that you had a real choice. What would've happened if you didn't go - physically, psychologically, emotionally? I'm not looking for an answer, it's just worth thinking about. Are you being forced to eat, drink, breathe? Can you choose not to, and for how long before you can't take it anymore and relent? It's so easy for people to cast swift moral judgement over other people's "choices", simply because they happen to enjoy a mixture of brain chemicals that is more conducive to behavior that they see as morally righteous, and they assume that everyone else has it as easy as they do - physiologically speaking. You should be careful not to internalize that.
- FlameRobot 1y ago
  > Of course, but that doesn't mean that you had a real choice. Yes I did. I actually find it very insulting that you would deny me my own agency. I cured my addiction by simply not buying alcohol and abstaining. That was a choice I could have made at any point in the past. There are people that can drink responsibly. I am not one of those people. I made the responsible choice as an adult, to abstain from it. I don't miss it either BTW. I feel actually free. > What would've happened if you didn't go - physically, psychologically, emotionally? I'm not looking for an answer, it's just worth thinking about. I would have a lot more money, I wouldn't have got into stupid situations, some which I almost got myself killed, I wouldn't have had to spend 5 years rebuilding my career. > Are you being forced to eat, drink, breathe? Can you choose not to, and for how long before you can't take it anymore and relent? The comparison you are making here is asinine. > It's so easy for people to cast swift moral judgement over other people's "choices", simply because they happen to enjoy a mixture of brain chemicals that is more conducive to behavior that they see as morally righteous, and they assume that everyone else has it as easy as they do - physiologically speaking. You should be careful not to internalize that. The moral judgement is often painted by some as subjective. A lot of the times it can be, but very often it simply isn't. There are good reasons it is correct for people to judge someone poorly because they abuse drugs or alcohol. It isn't just the fact that they are making different choice that they disapprove of, it is the behaviour and consequences of that behaviour. This behaviour is frequently at best makes the person difficult to deal with, and at worst anti-social and dangerous and can often have dire consequences. That is simply a fact. Those people are correct to judge those people poorly. I am certainty not dyed in the wool conservative either. You just don't know what you are talking about tbh.
  - dns_snek 1y ago
    > Yes I did. I actually find it very insulting that you would deny me my own agency. I am not denying you anything. If you choose to believe in mind-body dualism you're free to do so, but this belief that you have agency which is completely independent of your physiology goes against everything we know about our brains and addiction. Dualism is what's behind harmful attitudes towards addiction and every other psychological disorder. People use the same exact reasoning to delegitimize depression, ADHD, anxiety, or whatever else they can use to feel superior. > I am certainty not dyed in the wool conservative either. You just don't know what you are talking about tbh. Yeah, sure, whatever you say.
    - cyberpunk 1y ago
      So your argument is that smokers and obese people have literally no control over their consumption because of non-duality? I mean, I’m a buddhist, I probably have a stronger sense of non-duality than most and that’s just horseshit unless I misunderstood you. edit: this is like saying rapists aren’t responsible for their crimes because they had a physiological response to seeing someone they found attractive. Urges of all kinds (never wanted to slap someone and didn’t?) can be overcome with an only a little discipline.
      - dns_snek 1y ago
        No, I'm saying that, to a very significant degree, our behavior is driven by physiological processes inside of our brains, and overcoming these can be extremely difficult. If people could just choose not to eat then they wouldn't be obese to begin with. You would know if you ever experienced depression, ADHD, or any other disorder takes away your executive function. I take it you don't consider these to be real disorders? > Urges of all kinds (never wanted to slap someone and didn’t?) can be overcome with an only a little discipline. Re: Discipline: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45702667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45702667
        cyberpunk 1y ago
        Oh no I think they’re real, but I also I think the proportion of people who genuinely have no control over these parameters is vanishingly small. In all things, generalisation is probably too blunt, but removing the agency from everyone, turning them into victims of their own brain chemistry and advancing the narrative that they can’t possibly change their situation does them far more harm than good. Even depression, there are things which you can do to overcome it. I’m not saying it’s easy, but you seem to be arguing it’s impossible.
pajamasam 1y ago
> I was the one who chose to start drinking. Alcohol doesn’t affect me much personally, so I’ve never understood why anyone would start drinking in the first place. But that’s where I would argue that addictions are less of a choice and more circumstantial.
- huimang 1y ago
  Social pressure, and enjoying the taste of the drink.
  - FlameRobot 1y ago
    You know what is the funniest thing. I used to drink all these different Ales and artisan beers. After I quit drinking alcohol. I used to have a 4 pack of these 0% Ales/Larger that was supposed to taste similar. The packaging differs from the regular beer in that it has a silver top instead of dark blue on this particular. I picked up the alcoholic ones inadvertently as they were in the wrong place on the shelf. When I took a sip, I thought it had gone off. It tasted terrible, like poison! Obviously once I checked the can, I realised my mistake. I gave them to my rest of the pack to one of my neighbours I think.

dns_snek 1y ago

> Nobody forced me to go to the bar or the off-licence. Of course, but that doesn't mean that you had a real choice. What would've happened if you didn't go - physically, psychologically, emotionally? I'm not looking for an answer, it's just worth thinking about. Are you being forced to eat, drink, breathe? Can you choose not to, and for how long before you can't take it anymore and relent? It's so easy for people to cast swift moral judgement over other people's "choices", simply because they happen to enjoy a mixture of brain chemicals that is more conducive to behavior that they see as morally righteous, and they assume that everyone else has it as easy as they do - physiologically speaking. You should be careful not to internalize that.

FlameRobot 1y ago
> Of course, but that doesn't mean that you had a real choice. Yes I did. I actually find it very insulting that you would deny me my own agency. I cured my addiction by simply not buying alcohol and abstaining. That was a choice I could have made at any point in the past. There are people that can drink responsibly. I am not one of those people. I made the responsible choice as an adult, to abstain from it. I don't miss it either BTW. I feel actually free. > What would've happened if you didn't go - physically, psychologically, emotionally? I'm not looking for an answer, it's just worth thinking about. I would have a lot more money, I wouldn't have got into stupid situations, some which I almost got myself killed, I wouldn't have had to spend 5 years rebuilding my career. > Are you being forced to eat, drink, breathe? Can you choose not to, and for how long before you can't take it anymore and relent? The comparison you are making here is asinine. > It's so easy for people to cast swift moral judgement over other people's "choices", simply because they happen to enjoy a mixture of brain chemicals that is more conducive to behavior that they see as morally righteous, and they assume that everyone else has it as easy as they do - physiologically speaking. You should be careful not to internalize that. The moral judgement is often painted by some as subjective. A lot of the times it can be, but very often it simply isn't. There are good reasons it is correct for people to judge someone poorly because they abuse drugs or alcohol. It isn't just the fact that they are making different choice that they disapprove of, it is the behaviour and consequences of that behaviour. This behaviour is frequently at best makes the person difficult to deal with, and at worst anti-social and dangerous and can often have dire consequences. That is simply a fact. Those people are correct to judge those people poorly. I am certainty not dyed in the wool conservative either. You just don't know what you are talking about tbh.
- dns_snek 1y ago
  > Yes I did. I actually find it very insulting that you would deny me my own agency. I am not denying you anything. If you choose to believe in mind-body dualism you're free to do so, but this belief that you have agency which is completely independent of your physiology goes against everything we know about our brains and addiction. Dualism is what's behind harmful attitudes towards addiction and every other psychological disorder. People use the same exact reasoning to delegitimize depression, ADHD, anxiety, or whatever else they can use to feel superior. > I am certainty not dyed in the wool conservative either. You just don't know what you are talking about tbh. Yeah, sure, whatever you say.
  - cyberpunk 1y ago
    So your argument is that smokers and obese people have literally no control over their consumption because of non-duality? I mean, I’m a buddhist, I probably have a stronger sense of non-duality than most and that’s just horseshit unless I misunderstood you. edit: this is like saying rapists aren’t responsible for their crimes because they had a physiological response to seeing someone they found attractive. Urges of all kinds (never wanted to slap someone and didn’t?) can be overcome with an only a little discipline.
    - dns_snek 1y ago
      No, I'm saying that, to a very significant degree, our behavior is driven by physiological processes inside of our brains, and overcoming these can be extremely difficult. If people could just choose not to eat then they wouldn't be obese to begin with. You would know if you ever experienced depression, ADHD, or any other disorder takes away your executive function. I take it you don't consider these to be real disorders? > Urges of all kinds (never wanted to slap someone and didn’t?) can be overcome with an only a little discipline. Re: Discipline: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45702667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45702667
      - cyberpunk 1y ago
        Oh no I think they’re real, but I also I think the proportion of people who genuinely have no control over these parameters is vanishingly small. In all things, generalisation is probably too blunt, but removing the agency from everyone, turning them into victims of their own brain chemistry and advancing the narrative that they can’t possibly change their situation does them far more harm than good. Even depression, there are things which you can do to overcome it. I’m not saying it’s easy, but you seem to be arguing it’s impossible.

pajamasam 1y ago

> I was the one who chose to start drinking. Alcohol doesn’t affect me much personally, so I’ve never understood why anyone would start drinking in the first place. But that’s where I would argue that addictions are less of a choice and more circumstantial.

huimang 1y ago
Social pressure, and enjoying the taste of the drink.
- FlameRobot 1y ago
  You know what is the funniest thing. I used to drink all these different Ales and artisan beers. After I quit drinking alcohol. I used to have a 4 pack of these 0% Ales/Larger that was supposed to taste similar. The packaging differs from the regular beer in that it has a silver top instead of dark blue on this particular. I picked up the alcoholic ones inadvertently as they were in the wrong place on the shelf. When I took a sip, I thought it had gone off. It tasted terrible, like poison! Obviously once I checked the can, I realised my mistake. I gave them to my rest of the pack to one of my neighbours I think.