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I really love what Asahi Linux is doing, but given Apple’s yearly release cadence of new chips, it feels like a Sisyphean task. Though in the plus side, even t

I really love what Asahi Linux is doing, but given Apple’s yearly release cadence of new chips, it feels like a Sisyphean task. Though in the plus side, even the base M1 is so capable that even if they stopped there it would be useful for years to come.

throw728349 1y ago
[flagged]
- einsteinx2 1y ago
  I should have been ready for the HN pedantry... When I said base model M1, I meant the CPU as opposed to the M1 Pro or Max, not the base model machine. The M1 CPU is fast enough to be "capable for years to come." Also Asahi currently has decent support for up to the M2 Max, which is available in significantly higher configs and very much will be "capable for years to come". Yes they still have soldered SSDs, but I have a feeling the 4TB SSD in my personal M2 Max machine will in fact last for many years. Not to mention that it's possible to solder on different NAND chips if the existing ones fail, though of course that requires a shop with sufficient skill and tools. My point was only to say that keeping up with each years model may in fact be impossible, but the M1 and M2 line of chips are so capable that even if they stopped there, it would be a useful operating system for many years.
  - throw728349 1y ago
    With M1 memory is part of chip, no?
    - einsteinx2 1y ago
      RAM memory is on chip, SSD storage is on the motherboard. The potential issue you brought up was related to the SSD, which can be replaced by a competent technician as they’re separate chips on the motherboard. DRAM also doesn’t wear out from use the way that NAND flash does.
- mort96 1y ago
  Since they didn't mention a computer line but rather a CPU, I assume they used "base M1" to mean the CPU called "M1" as opposed to the "M1 Pro" or "M1 Max" or "M1 Ultra". I don't think they were referring to "base M1 MacBook Pro" or "base M1 MacBook Air" or "base M1 Mac Mini". And they're right, the "base M1" (as in not the Pro, Max or Ultra) is a very capable chip.
  - einsteinx2 1y ago
    > I assume they used "base M1" to mean the CPU called "M1" as opposed to the "M1 Pro" or "M1 Max" or "M1 Ultra". Yep, that is exactly what I meant.
  - prmph 1y ago
    Even the base model M1 is still a very capable machine for a lot of tasks. The HN bubble strikes again
- achandlerwhite 1y ago
  do you have a link or anything that supports this claim? As I recall it was an error in the reporting utility not the drives themselves.
  - lagniappe 1y ago
    It's best not to respond to unruly green names.
ForHackernews 1y ago
We're witnessing the end of the IBM PC-compatible era, and maybe more ominously of general-purpose personal computing. The future looks like custom chipsets with signed bootloaders that only run signed OEM applications. You will not have root on any of the devices you nominally own.
- einsteinx2 1y ago
  The tide does seem to be turning that way, though I do think it will be possible to buy general purpose computers for the foreseeable future. Also as a minor counter point, the only reason Asahi is even possible is that Apple explicitly designed in support for booting other operating systems into the M-series chips. They certainly could have locked them down just like they did the iPhone and iPad, but they didn't. That was a conscious choice according to the Asahi folks. So while they may not be sharing technical documentation/drivers or otherwise making it easy on the Asahi devs, even the famously "walled garden" Apple seems to have explicitly not restricted their new line of computers in the way you're describing.
  - transpute 1y ago
    > Apple explicitly designed in support for booting other operating systems into the M-series chips Thank Xeno, who has since been creating open-source training on low-level firmware security at https://p.ost2.fyi https://p.ost2.fyi, a new iteration of open training material published ~15 years ago at https://opensecuritytraining.info https://opensecuritytraining.info before joining Apple. https://archive.fosdem.org/2022/schedule/speaker/xeno_kovah/ https://archive.fosdem.org/2022/schedule/speaker/xeno_kovah/ his final project was leading the M1 SecureBoot architecture - being directly responsible for designing a system that could provide iOS-level security, while still allowing customer choice to trust arbitrary non-Apple code such as Linux bootloaders.
  - Rohansi 1y ago
    > Apple explicitly designed in support for booting other operating systems into the M-series chips Don't you think it's interesting that it's an option for Macs but not iPad Pros? They both use the same SoC. > So while they may not be sharing technical documentation/drivers or otherwise making it easy on the Asahi devs, even the famously "walled garden" Apple seems to have explicitly not restricted their new line of computers in the way you're describing. Give it a few more years. Asahi will probably be so far behind that it wouldn't even matter. Eventually they can just turn off allowing third-party operating systems on new hardware.
bluedino 1y ago
> even the base M1 is so capable that even if they stopped there it would be useful for years to come. My M1 Air is 4 years old and it's by far the most capable 4 year old Mac I've owned.
- einsteinx2 1y ago
  Yeah when I got the first gen base model M1 Air, I put it to the test against my maxed out i9 MacBook Pro (basically the last Intel model they released, so it was the “best of the best” they had to offer on the Intel side). I tried out using Handbrake to CPU encode the same video on both devices. Amazingly the M1 Air was slightly faster than the i9, while comparatively sipping power, and staying relatively cool without even having a fan. The i9 on the other hand drained its battery super fast, sounded like a jet plane taking off, and was too hot to sit on my lap. That’s when I knew it was really a massive leap forward.
DannyBee 1y ago
"I really love what Asahi Linux is doing, but given Apple’s yearly release cadence of new chips, it feels like a Sisyphean task." This is more true on the gpu side than the cpu/soc side for sure. Speaking as someone who worked on this (i did a bunch of the m3 work here, and some wifi work) - it's not anywhere near as bad as embedded work i used to do many eons ago. Apple doesn't like to spend tons of time/energy either, and since they make most of their own hardware interfaces (or force others to their specs), most of the time the driver->hardware interfaces are just being extended/improved year over year. Sometimes things move from one bus kind to another, and there's different hookup to do, or you have to get around to some functionality you never did, etc. But it's not like you need a brand new driver every year for the usb controller, for example. Power management is probably one of the worst changing areas, along with NPU/GPU obviously. Put another way - outside of NPU/GPU, you can slowly build up enough of the driver base that it can be maintained and kept up to date by a small number of people with not huge amounts of time. It's not there yet, but it's possible to get there. This is because Apple doesn't get a lot from changing this stuff either.
- einsteinx2 1y ago
  Thanks for the insight!
giancarlostoro 1y ago
As others have noted, Linux is fine on older hardware, always. In fact, laptops I would have otherwise thrown away were given totally new life by Linux alone. Windows is too bloated the last few years. It is really ridiculous how much Windows bloat there is, no amount of breaking the OS with unstable tweaks ever did it any better either. With Linux you can go as lean and minimal as you want and need, without breaking the OS.

throw728349 1y ago

[flagged]

einsteinx2 1y ago
I should have been ready for the HN pedantry... When I said base model M1, I meant the CPU as opposed to the M1 Pro or Max, not the base model machine. The M1 CPU is fast enough to be "capable for years to come." Also Asahi currently has decent support for up to the M2 Max, which is available in significantly higher configs and very much will be "capable for years to come". Yes they still have soldered SSDs, but I have a feeling the 4TB SSD in my personal M2 Max machine will in fact last for many years. Not to mention that it's possible to solder on different NAND chips if the existing ones fail, though of course that requires a shop with sufficient skill and tools. My point was only to say that keeping up with each years model may in fact be impossible, but the M1 and M2 line of chips are so capable that even if they stopped there, it would be a useful operating system for many years.
- throw728349 1y ago
  With M1 memory is part of chip, no?
  - einsteinx2 1y ago
    RAM memory is on chip, SSD storage is on the motherboard. The potential issue you brought up was related to the SSD, which can be replaced by a competent technician as they’re separate chips on the motherboard. DRAM also doesn’t wear out from use the way that NAND flash does.
mort96 1y ago
Since they didn't mention a computer line but rather a CPU, I assume they used "base M1" to mean the CPU called "M1" as opposed to the "M1 Pro" or "M1 Max" or "M1 Ultra". I don't think they were referring to "base M1 MacBook Pro" or "base M1 MacBook Air" or "base M1 Mac Mini". And they're right, the "base M1" (as in not the Pro, Max or Ultra) is a very capable chip.
- einsteinx2 1y ago
  > I assume they used "base M1" to mean the CPU called "M1" as opposed to the "M1 Pro" or "M1 Max" or "M1 Ultra". Yep, that is exactly what I meant.
- prmph 1y ago
  Even the base model M1 is still a very capable machine for a lot of tasks. The HN bubble strikes again
achandlerwhite 1y ago
do you have a link or anything that supports this claim? As I recall it was an error in the reporting utility not the drives themselves.
- lagniappe 1y ago
  It's best not to respond to unruly green names.

ForHackernews 1y ago

We're witnessing the end of the IBM PC-compatible era, and maybe more ominously of general-purpose personal computing. The future looks like custom chipsets with signed bootloaders that only run signed OEM applications. You will not have root on any of the devices you nominally own.

einsteinx2 1y ago
The tide does seem to be turning that way, though I do think it will be possible to buy general purpose computers for the foreseeable future. Also as a minor counter point, the only reason Asahi is even possible is that Apple explicitly designed in support for booting other operating systems into the M-series chips. They certainly could have locked them down just like they did the iPhone and iPad, but they didn't. That was a conscious choice according to the Asahi folks. So while they may not be sharing technical documentation/drivers or otherwise making it easy on the Asahi devs, even the famously "walled garden" Apple seems to have explicitly not restricted their new line of computers in the way you're describing.
- transpute 1y ago
  > Apple explicitly designed in support for booting other operating systems into the M-series chips Thank Xeno, who has since been creating open-source training on low-level firmware security at https://p.ost2.fyi https://p.ost2.fyi, a new iteration of open training material published ~15 years ago at https://opensecuritytraining.info https://opensecuritytraining.info before joining Apple. https://archive.fosdem.org/2022/schedule/speaker/xeno_kovah/ https://archive.fosdem.org/2022/schedule/speaker/xeno_kovah/ his final project was leading the M1 SecureBoot architecture - being directly responsible for designing a system that could provide iOS-level security, while still allowing customer choice to trust arbitrary non-Apple code such as Linux bootloaders.
- Rohansi 1y ago
  > Apple explicitly designed in support for booting other operating systems into the M-series chips Don't you think it's interesting that it's an option for Macs but not iPad Pros? They both use the same SoC. > So while they may not be sharing technical documentation/drivers or otherwise making it easy on the Asahi devs, even the famously "walled garden" Apple seems to have explicitly not restricted their new line of computers in the way you're describing. Give it a few more years. Asahi will probably be so far behind that it wouldn't even matter. Eventually they can just turn off allowing third-party operating systems on new hardware.

bluedino 1y ago

> even the base M1 is so capable that even if they stopped there it would be useful for years to come. My M1 Air is 4 years old and it's by far the most capable 4 year old Mac I've owned.

einsteinx2 1y ago
Yeah when I got the first gen base model M1 Air, I put it to the test against my maxed out i9 MacBook Pro (basically the last Intel model they released, so it was the “best of the best” they had to offer on the Intel side). I tried out using Handbrake to CPU encode the same video on both devices. Amazingly the M1 Air was slightly faster than the i9, while comparatively sipping power, and staying relatively cool without even having a fan. The i9 on the other hand drained its battery super fast, sounded like a jet plane taking off, and was too hot to sit on my lap. That’s when I knew it was really a massive leap forward.

DannyBee 1y ago

"I really love what Asahi Linux is doing, but given Apple’s yearly release cadence of new chips, it feels like a Sisyphean task." This is more true on the gpu side than the cpu/soc side for sure. Speaking as someone who worked on this (i did a bunch of the m3 work here, and some wifi work) - it's not anywhere near as bad as embedded work i used to do many eons ago. Apple doesn't like to spend tons of time/energy either, and since they make most of their own hardware interfaces (or force others to their specs), most of the time the driver->hardware interfaces are just being extended/improved year over year. Sometimes things move from one bus kind to another, and there's different hookup to do, or you have to get around to some functionality you never did, etc. But it's not like you need a brand new driver every year for the usb controller, for example. Power management is probably one of the worst changing areas, along with NPU/GPU obviously. Put another way - outside of NPU/GPU, you can slowly build up enough of the driver base that it can be maintained and kept up to date by a small number of people with not huge amounts of time. It's not there yet, but it's possible to get there. This is because Apple doesn't get a lot from changing this stuff either.

einsteinx2 1y ago
Thanks for the insight!

giancarlostoro 1y ago

As others have noted, Linux is fine on older hardware, always. In fact, laptops I would have otherwise thrown away were given totally new life by Linux alone. Windows is too bloated the last few years. It is really ridiculous how much Windows bloat there is, no amount of breaking the OS with unstable tweaks ever did it any better either. With Linux you can go as lean and minimal as you want and need, without breaking the OS.