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How much of a fee do you think you should pay to install applications on your computer? The same amount as that. Or provide alternative ways to install softwar

How much of a fee do you think you should pay to install applications on your computer? The same amount as that. Or provide alternative ways to install software. This is a problem of their own creation.

chongli 1y ago
As soon as you open the door to side-loading, you'll have scammers and data-siphoners force all their users to side-load so that they can completely bypass Apple's privacy controls and security features. The entire iOS ecosystem is built on the App Store review process as a gatekeeper for entitlements and the capabilities they grant (through API access). How do you solve that problem for side-loaded apps?
- monkmartinez 1y ago
  Does Apple have an explicit guarantee that apps can not scam or data siphon from an iPhone or iPad app?
  - chongli 1y ago
    Yes, assuming that iOS's entitlement security has not been broken.
    - Deathmax 1y ago
      As if the App Store had any sort of those guarantees. I know of people have been scammed via WebView wrappers that purported to be some benign app to pass app store review, which were then pointed at fake exchange websites afterwards. GitLab which was hosting their C&C mechanism took action faster than Apple or Google did to take down multiple scam apps across multiple different developer identities, but the scammers spun up new apps the next day.
      - chongli 1y ago
        WebView wrappers don't have any more ability to siphon data out of the phone than any other app. Scammers can always scam users if they can trick them into entering data into a website. There's nothing anyone can do about that (besides blocking web access).
        Rohansi 1y ago
        The point is Apple isn't really helping with the problem because the weakest link is people. If you can get someone to install malicious software how much more difficult is it to have them willingly give it via phishing?
        chongli 1y ago
        I don’t see how going back to the Wild West of the PC era is supposed to help these nontechnical users be safer. The App Store isn’t perfect but it’s far, far safer than that. I have vivid memories of loads of relatives in the Windows XP era with browsers laden with toolbars that spy on everything they do and slow the computer to a crawl. Those users see something like the iPhone as a massive breath of fresh air. Nothing you install on the App Store can inject adware into the rest of the operating system like that.
        array_key_first 1y ago
        > Nothing you install on the App Store can inject adware into the rest of the operating system like that. That has literally fuck all to do with the app store. That's called sandboxing - the app store has nothing to do with sandboxing. They are different things. Why are we being dishonest.
        bloppe 1y ago
        So... what's the point of all the onerous restrictions in the first place?
    - asadotzler 1y ago
      Point me to an Apple document that says they'll reimburse me if I'm scammed by an App Store app. If Apple cannot offer a guarantee, that means they don't trust their App Store to protect me and if they don't trust their App Store to protect me then they can hardly claim in court that they deny user choice to protect users.
- dreamcompiler 1y ago
  How is it that I can load MacOS apps from anywhere, and yet they don't "completely bypass Apple's privacy controls and security features"?
  - nomel 1y ago
    The context here is mobile. Everyone understands that you're free to break/install things as you wish, in macOS, if you disable the "dumb user" safeguards.
- anonymous908213 1y ago
  Sideloading, AKA "installing software on your device", is something PCs have been handling just fine for decades. It's fine to warn the user when they're going off the beaten trail, but do not lock them in a cage to prevent them from doing so. If they ignore the warnings and get scammed because they are unable to identify reputable software from disreputable software, they learn a life lesson. Life goes on. There should be no societal expectation that everyone is prevented from ever taking an action that could bring themselves harm, by preventing them from taking actions at all.
  - chongli 1y ago
    There are entire classes of people who have simply given up on PCs and only use a phone, so I would call that substantial evidence that PCs have NOT "been handling [it] just fine." For these folks, PCs are a total failure; a dead end. A danger zone to be avoided at all costs.
    - anonymous908213 1y ago
      If you have a citation that droves of people are abandoning PCs for phones specifically because PCs allow them to install software of their choice, rather than other reasons like the convenience of a computer that fits in their hand, I'd be interested in seeing it. Because that sounds like an absolutely outrageous claim to be asserting as a fact to me.
      - chongli 1y ago
        You can Google it yourself. There are tons of studies showing a decline in technology literacy among younger generations (Z and alpha). Millennials were the peak. This shows that younger kids aren’t using traditional PCs, at least not to the same degree. They just use phones and tablets. At best they may play games on their PC by installing via Steam. Very few of them are becoming proper technologists (able to install and use any software, script the computer, or write their own software).
        1y ago
- cco 1y ago
  My precise location data and credit card transactions are freely available on the market. Just by companies listed on the stock market who got that data "legally" in our current walled and "safe" garden. I appreciate a lockdown for kids and elders, but let's not pretend our data is locked safely away in this walled garden.
  - chongli 1y ago
    Credit card and location data is one thing. If we opened up these devices to the Wild West we’d have spyware that tracks every single thing you do on the phone in real time (and logs all your conversations and everything else). We’d also have malware that gets root access to the phone and breaks into your bank accounts. It would be a total disaster!
    - array_key_first 1y ago
      1. The app store is already mostly spyware. 2. Apps are actively encouraged by Apple and Google to be spyware. 3. An app store cannot prevent spyware. 4. Sandboxing is unrelated to an app store. 5. Most source code is not available on the app store, and Apple and Google are actively hostile to open source apps. 6. There is zero source auditing done on the app store.
- realusername 1y ago
  Apple gets most of it's appstore money from very shady casino-like game apps which I'm unconfortable giving to my family. If there's any benevolent gatekeeping, I'm not seeing it.
- array_key_first 1y ago
  Apple has literally zero "security features" that rely on the app store. They do not review source code. There is malware on the Apple app store, because they do not review apps for malware. Because they do not review source code. Any other opinion is just not true.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

chongli 1y ago

As soon as you open the door to side-loading, you'll have scammers and data-siphoners force all their users to side-load so that they can completely bypass Apple's privacy controls and security features. The entire iOS ecosystem is built on the App Store review process as a gatekeeper for entitlements and the capabilities they grant (through API access). How do you solve that problem for side-loaded apps?

monkmartinez 1y ago
Does Apple have an explicit guarantee that apps can not scam or data siphon from an iPhone or iPad app?
- chongli 1y ago
  Yes, assuming that iOS's entitlement security has not been broken.
  - Deathmax 1y ago
    As if the App Store had any sort of those guarantees. I know of people have been scammed via WebView wrappers that purported to be some benign app to pass app store review, which were then pointed at fake exchange websites afterwards. GitLab which was hosting their C&C mechanism took action faster than Apple or Google did to take down multiple scam apps across multiple different developer identities, but the scammers spun up new apps the next day.
    - chongli 1y ago
      WebView wrappers don't have any more ability to siphon data out of the phone than any other app. Scammers can always scam users if they can trick them into entering data into a website. There's nothing anyone can do about that (besides blocking web access).
      - Rohansi 1y ago
        The point is Apple isn't really helping with the problem because the weakest link is people. If you can get someone to install malicious software how much more difficult is it to have them willingly give it via phishing?
        chongli 1y ago
        I don’t see how going back to the Wild West of the PC era is supposed to help these nontechnical users be safer. The App Store isn’t perfect but it’s far, far safer than that. I have vivid memories of loads of relatives in the Windows XP era with browsers laden with toolbars that spy on everything they do and slow the computer to a crawl. Those users see something like the iPhone as a massive breath of fresh air. Nothing you install on the App Store can inject adware into the rest of the operating system like that.
        array_key_first 1y ago
        > Nothing you install on the App Store can inject adware into the rest of the operating system like that. That has literally fuck all to do with the app store. That's called sandboxing - the app store has nothing to do with sandboxing. They are different things. Why are we being dishonest.
      - bloppe 1y ago
        So... what's the point of all the onerous restrictions in the first place?
  - asadotzler 1y ago
    Point me to an Apple document that says they'll reimburse me if I'm scammed by an App Store app. If Apple cannot offer a guarantee, that means they don't trust their App Store to protect me and if they don't trust their App Store to protect me then they can hardly claim in court that they deny user choice to protect users.
dreamcompiler 1y ago
How is it that I can load MacOS apps from anywhere, and yet they don't "completely bypass Apple's privacy controls and security features"?
- nomel 1y ago
  The context here is mobile. Everyone understands that you're free to break/install things as you wish, in macOS, if you disable the "dumb user" safeguards.
anonymous908213 1y ago
Sideloading, AKA "installing software on your device", is something PCs have been handling just fine for decades. It's fine to warn the user when they're going off the beaten trail, but do not lock them in a cage to prevent them from doing so. If they ignore the warnings and get scammed because they are unable to identify reputable software from disreputable software, they learn a life lesson. Life goes on. There should be no societal expectation that everyone is prevented from ever taking an action that could bring themselves harm, by preventing them from taking actions at all.
- chongli 1y ago
  There are entire classes of people who have simply given up on PCs and only use a phone, so I would call that substantial evidence that PCs have NOT "been handling [it] just fine." For these folks, PCs are a total failure; a dead end. A danger zone to be avoided at all costs.
  - anonymous908213 1y ago
    If you have a citation that droves of people are abandoning PCs for phones specifically because PCs allow them to install software of their choice, rather than other reasons like the convenience of a computer that fits in their hand, I'd be interested in seeing it. Because that sounds like an absolutely outrageous claim to be asserting as a fact to me.
    - chongli 1y ago
      You can Google it yourself. There are tons of studies showing a decline in technology literacy among younger generations (Z and alpha). Millennials were the peak. This shows that younger kids aren’t using traditional PCs, at least not to the same degree. They just use phones and tablets. At best they may play games on their PC by installing via Steam. Very few of them are becoming proper technologists (able to install and use any software, script the computer, or write their own software).
      - 1y ago
cco 1y ago
My precise location data and credit card transactions are freely available on the market. Just by companies listed on the stock market who got that data "legally" in our current walled and "safe" garden. I appreciate a lockdown for kids and elders, but let's not pretend our data is locked safely away in this walled garden.
- chongli 1y ago
  Credit card and location data is one thing. If we opened up these devices to the Wild West we’d have spyware that tracks every single thing you do on the phone in real time (and logs all your conversations and everything else). We’d also have malware that gets root access to the phone and breaks into your bank accounts. It would be a total disaster!
  - array_key_first 1y ago
    1. The app store is already mostly spyware. 2. Apps are actively encouraged by Apple and Google to be spyware. 3. An app store cannot prevent spyware. 4. Sandboxing is unrelated to an app store. 5. Most source code is not available on the app store, and Apple and Google are actively hostile to open source apps. 6. There is zero source auditing done on the app store.
realusername 1y ago
Apple gets most of it's appstore money from very shady casino-like game apps which I'm unconfortable giving to my family. If there's any benevolent gatekeeping, I'm not seeing it.
array_key_first 1y ago
Apple has literally zero "security features" that rely on the app store. They do not review source code. There is malware on the Apple app store, because they do not review apps for malware. Because they do not review source code. Any other opinion is just not true.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]