5 ms·

I tend to agree with comments that point out that 'modern' e-bikes are really electric motor cycles or the original "MoPed" from the 60's. And they have the sam

I tend to agree with comments that point out that 'modern' e-bikes are really electric motor cycles or the original "MoPed" from the 60's. And they have the same appeal, relatively cheap to operate, fit in between regulatory categories, don't require a garage to store, Etc. E-scooters aren't much better (just worse kinematics). That said, I never thought the Segway was ever going to be more than a 'niche' product whereas I had already lived in a city[1] with thousands of mopeds. To the extent they are embraced by urban planners with reduced parking mandates and their own roadways I think they are a net win for cities, when they terrorize pedestrians on sidewalks, not so much. [1] Brussels.

mc32 1y ago
Mopeds but with crappier seats. Mopeds at least had decently comfortable seats and could seat a passenger —if we’re considering normal BMI folks.
- nntwozz 1y ago
  Moped seats are for sitting, bike seats are for pedaling. They're not worse, they're different because they need to be.
  - mc32 1y ago
    Are people going to pedal on these things? Mopeds could also be pedalled if stalled -unlike scooters. I mean, sure, I know their form factor is that of a bike --but its locomotion is more similar to that of a e-moped. Unfortunately with very lousy seats. At moped and these ebike speeds you want better seating.
    - ygjb 1y ago
      Yes. There are e-bikes that look like motorcycles or mopeds that can be pedaled, but are uncomfortable, and there are e-bikes that look vespa style scooters that have pedals but it's completely impractical to pedal them - the pedal operation is there to qualify under specific requirements to be classified as an e-bike.
F7F7F7 1y ago
Adjusted for inflation the Segway would be close to $10,000 today after taxes. That price tag and the way overhyped lead up to it's unveiling combined to kill any chance the Segway had. Dean's (RIP, I think) vision might have had a chance if it wasn't the same price as a lightly used new-to-me Kia Sephia. At even half the $5000+ price it would have found a lot more adoption. Tourism companies still use the shit out of them and once they start dumping them, I bet they'll be the cool thing to have.
- onionisafruit 1y ago
  Dean Kamen is still kicking
  - guitarsteve 1y ago
    Probably thinking of Jimi Heselden who bought the Segway company and died driving a Segway Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimi_Heselden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimi_Heselden
- intrasight 1y ago
  It's Woodie Flowers who passed away
- slumberlust 1y ago
  Dean is not dead and has owned a biotech company in Manchester NH for a four decades now.
gpm 1y ago
There are plenty of modern ebikes that are just bikes with a motor. I have one of these for instance (well, the previous generation): https://ride1up.com/product/roadster-v3/ https://ride1up.com/product/roadster-v3/ The best description I've seen of using it is "cycling without hills". The fact that we use the same name for these and "low speed electric motorcycles" is... unfortunate.
- trollbridge 1y ago
  Early motorcycles were also indeed just bicycles with a motor.
daft_pink 1y ago
I think that the Class 1 and Class 2 and Class 3 regulations when properly followed tell you what you are getting. Since this is Class 3, it really is close to a Moped and has a lot more restrictions depending on your area similar to a motorcycle but still allowed on city streets without insurance in most places in the USA, but often has restrictions in parks etc. The problem is that many other manufacturers have “selectable” class which really is meaningless and doesn’t really tell you what you are buying and often times is really close to a motorcycle. But unlike cars you can easily import bikes that don’t conform to the regulation so many don’t. If I were buying a bike for my young child I would stick to class 1 or 2.
- horsawlarway 1y ago
  I agree, the classifications are pretty solid when followed and I'm with you on class 2 being the right pick for most people - But I'd argue they're too complicated. I think it's also a social issue right now, there's very little general information provided to bikers (ex - most people don't even know these classifications exist, and can't remember them if they do), and not a large enough chunk of the population is biking yet to get a general consensus on "acceptable" behavior. Couple that with low enforcement, and it makes sense a fair number of people are just clueless. --- Just simple things like "bike speed limit" signs on trails/paths would probably help a lot. I have a class 3 ebike, and I'd still 100% prefer to ride it on a trail with a speed limit of 20mph instead of having trying to mingle with cars on even moderatly busy streets. The laws should let bikers understand the desired behavior, and allow them to self-regulate. Especially given that this isn't in the same risk category as larger vehicles (e-bikes are half the weight of mopeds, and 28mph is very different than 45) Then give folks tickets. They're too useful to go away - we'll get it figured out.
  - conk 1y ago
    I think the MPH limit for ebike classification makes sense. But why do they need a 750W limit? Whats the harm in a motor putting out 3000W to get a loaded cargo bike up a steep hill at 8 MPH.
    - 1y ago
nntwozz 1y ago
It depends on what you mean with an e-bike, most e-bikes are pedelecs. That means they don't have a throttle which is what a motorcycle or moped has. You have to pedal to get an assist, this can either be a hub drive or a mid drive motor which have different characteristics (that's another story).
- dtgriscom 1y ago
  > most e-bikes are pedelecs I think the "most" is overstated; I've been shopping for a year or two, and most of the ones I see have throttles.
  - Shin-- 1y ago
    Must be an American thing? I have never even seen anything else than pedelecs.
    - skeeter2020 1y ago
      I see lots of "sit down" electric fat bikes; they're all throttle assist. Many of the smaller wheeled models are as well.
    - tim333 1y ago
      In the UK they have to have pedals to be legal.
  - nntwozz 1y ago
    Globally, an average of 79.35% of e-bikes used are pedal-assisted types, which allow users to cycle faster and with less physical effort. Less popular among e-bike users are throttle-assisted and speed pedelec bikes. Percentage of pedal-assisted e-bike users: 78.06% (Europe) 79.56% (United States) 81.17% (Asia) References here: https://laka.co/gb/e-bike-market-statistics#:~:text=e%2Dbike%20sports-,Most%20Preferred%20e%2DBike%20Features,22 https://laka.co/gb/e-bike-market-statistics#:~:text=e%2Dbike...
  - shellfishgene 1y ago
    In pretty much all of Europe e-bikes with a throttle are considered a type of mofa/motorcycle (depends on top speed) and come with all kinds of additional rules, such as needing insurance, mandatory helmets, having to drive on the road, license plate requirement and at type of motorcycle driving license for the fast ones.
doctorpangloss 1y ago
The comments you are agreeing with: there's a lot about mopeds and drivetrains and Class 1/3, and yet nobody sees that this piece of shit doesn't even have fenders?
- ChuckMcM 1y ago
  Yes, the bikes in the pictures do not have fenders. However, if you look at the press coverage, there are lots of studs on the frame for adding everything from cargo racks to front pannier wine bottle holders. That makes me unwilling to dismiss it out of hand. It is pretty clear that for this launch they were going for a 'look' and no doubt some designer at Also chose what configurations they would show. My daily rider is a Trek Verve 2 (not electric) which Trek has a 'beauty shot'[1] of which features it without fenders. That said, mine has fenders because I don't like getting muddy water thrown up my back when I go through a puddle. So my take here is that yes, this is a rather 'bougie' e-bike with pretentious design presentations, but if the engineers did their job correctly I expect you'll be able to equip it with fenders and other gear that you find essential on something you ride. [1] https://media.trekbikes.com/image/upload/w_1200/Verve2Disc_21_32735_A_Portrait https://media.trekbikes.com/image/upload/w_1200/Verve2Disc_2...
conradev 1y ago
The one thing about e-bikes that I don't get is: why the chain? https://www.voromotors.com/products/emove-roadrunner-v3-seated-electric-scooter https://www.voromotors.com/products/emove-roadrunner-v3-seat... This thing has 500W hub motors, no expensive derailleur, no chain to maintain, just tires and brakes. The hub motors have internal gearing. I love mine for getting around LA.
- loeg 1y ago
  That isn't a bicycle. It's a scooter.
  - olyjohn 1y ago
    So the difference is having pedals? Even if said pedals are just acting as a throttle and not actually making you put in any effort?
    - Saris 1y ago
      Almost all ebikes use a torque sensor in the bottom bracket, meaning you do have to put out some effort to get full power from the motor.
    - loeg 1y ago
      Bicycles have pedals that can propel the vehicle forward by pedaling, yes.
- iancmceachern 1y ago
  Torque, electric motors need gearboxes just like everything else
  - defrost 1y ago
    This doesn't address the question "why a chain" though. Many motorcycles have grunty torque, gearboxes, and no chain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Shaft_drive_motorcycles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Shaft_drive_motorcycl... The BMW R 100GS Paris Dakar was the bee's knees for crossing the Tanimi Desert: https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/bmw/bmw-r100gs-pd-89.html https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/bmw/bmw-r100gs-pd-89...
trollbridge 1y ago
After seeing yet another brutal accident of an ebike yesterday, I suspect regulation is coming, including requiring drivers to be licenced the same way motorcycle operators are, vehicles registered the same way, and liability insurance required.
- josefresco 1y ago
  Same here, a local woman was recently impaled by an ebike. I doubt they'll require licenses but they will start banning them on busy bike / pedestrian trails.
- amelius 1y ago
  And mandatory helmets (even when it's not mandatory for normal bicycles).
  - trenchpilgrim 1y ago
    Maybe for minors. I don't see the US enforcing helmet laws on adults.
- shellfishgene 1y ago
  This is already the case in Europe. We have: Pedelecs up to 25 kmh, motor only supports pedaling, max 250 watt - Regulated like bicycles S-Pedelecs up to 45 kmh, motor only supports pedaling; and e-bikes with a throttle - Need helmet (specific ones, not any bike helmet) - Need license plate - Need insurance - Need small motorcycle driving license (included in car license) - Minimum age 16 - Can't use bike paths
- karakot 1y ago
  When school ends, I often see middle and high schoolers riding cheap (and extremely fast) e-bikes through the neighborhood, frequently blowing through stop signs and generally breaking every road rules. So it's just matter of time before it all gets over-regulated. and by a cheap bike I mean something like these "bikes": https://www.amazon.com/Electric-Suspension-Motorcycle-Battery-Powered/dp/B0FF4L8BN6 https://www.amazon.com/Electric-Suspension-Motorcycle-Batter... https://www.amazon.com/Qlife-Adults-1500W-Suspension-Motorcycle-Spark/dp/B0DZCQ3W8V https://www.amazon.com/Qlife-Adults-1500W-Suspension-Motorcy...

mc32 1y ago

Mopeds but with crappier seats. Mopeds at least had decently comfortable seats and could seat a passenger —if we’re considering normal BMI folks.

nntwozz 1y ago
Moped seats are for sitting, bike seats are for pedaling. They're not worse, they're different because they need to be.
- mc32 1y ago
  Are people going to pedal on these things? Mopeds could also be pedalled if stalled -unlike scooters. I mean, sure, I know their form factor is that of a bike --but its locomotion is more similar to that of a e-moped. Unfortunately with very lousy seats. At moped and these ebike speeds you want better seating.
  - ygjb 1y ago
    Yes. There are e-bikes that look like motorcycles or mopeds that can be pedaled, but are uncomfortable, and there are e-bikes that look vespa style scooters that have pedals but it's completely impractical to pedal them - the pedal operation is there to qualify under specific requirements to be classified as an e-bike.

F7F7F7 1y ago

Adjusted for inflation the Segway would be close to $10,000 today after taxes. That price tag and the way overhyped lead up to it's unveiling combined to kill any chance the Segway had. Dean's (RIP, I think) vision might have had a chance if it wasn't the same price as a lightly used new-to-me Kia Sephia. At even half the $5000+ price it would have found a lot more adoption. Tourism companies still use the shit out of them and once they start dumping them, I bet they'll be the cool thing to have.

onionisafruit 1y ago
Dean Kamen is still kicking
- guitarsteve 1y ago
  Probably thinking of Jimi Heselden who bought the Segway company and died driving a Segway Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimi_Heselden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimi_Heselden
intrasight 1y ago
It's Woodie Flowers who passed away
slumberlust 1y ago
Dean is not dead and has owned a biotech company in Manchester NH for a four decades now.

gpm 1y ago

There are plenty of modern ebikes that are just bikes with a motor. I have one of these for instance (well, the previous generation): https://ride1up.com/product/roadster-v3/ https://ride1up.com/product/roadster-v3/ The best description I've seen of using it is "cycling without hills". The fact that we use the same name for these and "low speed electric motorcycles" is... unfortunate.

trollbridge 1y ago
Early motorcycles were also indeed just bicycles with a motor.

daft_pink 1y ago

I think that the Class 1 and Class 2 and Class 3 regulations when properly followed tell you what you are getting. Since this is Class 3, it really is close to a Moped and has a lot more restrictions depending on your area similar to a motorcycle but still allowed on city streets without insurance in most places in the USA, but often has restrictions in parks etc. The problem is that many other manufacturers have “selectable” class which really is meaningless and doesn’t really tell you what you are buying and often times is really close to a motorcycle. But unlike cars you can easily import bikes that don’t conform to the regulation so many don’t. If I were buying a bike for my young child I would stick to class 1 or 2.

horsawlarway 1y ago
I agree, the classifications are pretty solid when followed and I'm with you on class 2 being the right pick for most people - But I'd argue they're too complicated. I think it's also a social issue right now, there's very little general information provided to bikers (ex - most people don't even know these classifications exist, and can't remember them if they do), and not a large enough chunk of the population is biking yet to get a general consensus on "acceptable" behavior. Couple that with low enforcement, and it makes sense a fair number of people are just clueless. --- Just simple things like "bike speed limit" signs on trails/paths would probably help a lot. I have a class 3 ebike, and I'd still 100% prefer to ride it on a trail with a speed limit of 20mph instead of having trying to mingle with cars on even moderatly busy streets. The laws should let bikers understand the desired behavior, and allow them to self-regulate. Especially given that this isn't in the same risk category as larger vehicles (e-bikes are half the weight of mopeds, and 28mph is very different than 45) Then give folks tickets. They're too useful to go away - we'll get it figured out.
- conk 1y ago
  I think the MPH limit for ebike classification makes sense. But why do they need a 750W limit? Whats the harm in a motor putting out 3000W to get a loaded cargo bike up a steep hill at 8 MPH.
  - 1y ago

nntwozz 1y ago

It depends on what you mean with an e-bike, most e-bikes are pedelecs. That means they don't have a throttle which is what a motorcycle or moped has. You have to pedal to get an assist, this can either be a hub drive or a mid drive motor which have different characteristics (that's another story).

dtgriscom 1y ago
> most e-bikes are pedelecs I think the "most" is overstated; I've been shopping for a year or two, and most of the ones I see have throttles.
- Shin-- 1y ago
  Must be an American thing? I have never even seen anything else than pedelecs.
  - skeeter2020 1y ago
    I see lots of "sit down" electric fat bikes; they're all throttle assist. Many of the smaller wheeled models are as well.
  - tim333 1y ago
    In the UK they have to have pedals to be legal.
- nntwozz 1y ago
  Globally, an average of 79.35% of e-bikes used are pedal-assisted types, which allow users to cycle faster and with less physical effort. Less popular among e-bike users are throttle-assisted and speed pedelec bikes. Percentage of pedal-assisted e-bike users: 78.06% (Europe) 79.56% (United States) 81.17% (Asia) References here: https://laka.co/gb/e-bike-market-statistics#:~:text=e%2Dbike%20sports-,Most%20Preferred%20e%2DBike%20Features,22 https://laka.co/gb/e-bike-market-statistics#:~:text=e%2Dbike...
- shellfishgene 1y ago
  In pretty much all of Europe e-bikes with a throttle are considered a type of mofa/motorcycle (depends on top speed) and come with all kinds of additional rules, such as needing insurance, mandatory helmets, having to drive on the road, license plate requirement and at type of motorcycle driving license for the fast ones.

doctorpangloss 1y ago

The comments you are agreeing with: there's a lot about mopeds and drivetrains and Class 1/3, and yet nobody sees that this piece of shit doesn't even have fenders?

ChuckMcM 1y ago
Yes, the bikes in the pictures do not have fenders. However, if you look at the press coverage, there are lots of studs on the frame for adding everything from cargo racks to front pannier wine bottle holders. That makes me unwilling to dismiss it out of hand. It is pretty clear that for this launch they were going for a 'look' and no doubt some designer at Also chose what configurations they would show. My daily rider is a Trek Verve 2 (not electric) which Trek has a 'beauty shot'[1] of which features it without fenders. That said, mine has fenders because I don't like getting muddy water thrown up my back when I go through a puddle. So my take here is that yes, this is a rather 'bougie' e-bike with pretentious design presentations, but if the engineers did their job correctly I expect you'll be able to equip it with fenders and other gear that you find essential on something you ride. [1] https://media.trekbikes.com/image/upload/w_1200/Verve2Disc_21_32735_A_Portrait https://media.trekbikes.com/image/upload/w_1200/Verve2Disc_2...

conradev 1y ago

The one thing about e-bikes that I don't get is: why the chain? https://www.voromotors.com/products/emove-roadrunner-v3-seated-electric-scooter https://www.voromotors.com/products/emove-roadrunner-v3-seat... This thing has 500W hub motors, no expensive derailleur, no chain to maintain, just tires and brakes. The hub motors have internal gearing. I love mine for getting around LA.

loeg 1y ago
That isn't a bicycle. It's a scooter.
- olyjohn 1y ago
  So the difference is having pedals? Even if said pedals are just acting as a throttle and not actually making you put in any effort?
  - Saris 1y ago
    Almost all ebikes use a torque sensor in the bottom bracket, meaning you do have to put out some effort to get full power from the motor.
  - loeg 1y ago
    Bicycles have pedals that can propel the vehicle forward by pedaling, yes.
iancmceachern 1y ago
Torque, electric motors need gearboxes just like everything else
- defrost 1y ago
  This doesn't address the question "why a chain" though. Many motorcycles have grunty torque, gearboxes, and no chain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Shaft_drive_motorcycles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Shaft_drive_motorcycl... The BMW R 100GS Paris Dakar was the bee's knees for crossing the Tanimi Desert: https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/bmw/bmw-r100gs-pd-89.html https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/bmw/bmw-r100gs-pd-89...

trollbridge 1y ago

After seeing yet another brutal accident of an ebike yesterday, I suspect regulation is coming, including requiring drivers to be licenced the same way motorcycle operators are, vehicles registered the same way, and liability insurance required.

josefresco 1y ago
Same here, a local woman was recently impaled by an ebike. I doubt they'll require licenses but they will start banning them on busy bike / pedestrian trails.
amelius 1y ago
And mandatory helmets (even when it's not mandatory for normal bicycles).
- trenchpilgrim 1y ago
  Maybe for minors. I don't see the US enforcing helmet laws on adults.
shellfishgene 1y ago
This is already the case in Europe. We have: Pedelecs up to 25 kmh, motor only supports pedaling, max 250 watt - Regulated like bicycles S-Pedelecs up to 45 kmh, motor only supports pedaling; and e-bikes with a throttle - Need helmet (specific ones, not any bike helmet) - Need license plate - Need insurance - Need small motorcycle driving license (included in car license) - Minimum age 16 - Can't use bike paths
karakot 1y ago
When school ends, I often see middle and high schoolers riding cheap (and extremely fast) e-bikes through the neighborhood, frequently blowing through stop signs and generally breaking every road rules. So it's just matter of time before it all gets over-regulated. and by a cheap bike I mean something like these "bikes": https://www.amazon.com/Electric-Suspension-Motorcycle-Battery-Powered/dp/B0FF4L8BN6 https://www.amazon.com/Electric-Suspension-Motorcycle-Batter... https://www.amazon.com/Qlife-Adults-1500W-Suspension-Motorcycle-Spark/dp/B0DZCQ3W8V https://www.amazon.com/Qlife-Adults-1500W-Suspension-Motorcy...