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"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" - maybe sometimes if you're an adult. But not childhood trauma...that makes you weaker almost every time, and you tak

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" - maybe sometimes if you're an adult. But not childhood trauma...that makes you weaker almost every time, and you take that weakness with you and spread it around.

taeric 1y ago
I didn't say that, though? Some things that don't kill you can, obviously, make you really really weak. Isn't hard to find examples on that front. Polio is the poster case. But thinking kids are made weaker from any and all trauma is just reductive to the point of not useful. I suspect we would largely align on the idea that growth is the important part. We would also largely agree that trauma is real. Question is how do you combine those ideas?
- OvbiousError 1y ago
  From what I've seen in my direct circle, childhood trauma leaves deep deep traces, and not in a good way. The idea that childhood trauma encourages growth to me sounds like pull yourself up by your bootstraps kind of rhetoric.
  - taeric 1y ago
    And where did I say that? You seem to be purposely misreading my posts. I said growth is the important part. If you are focusing people on identifying themselves as traumatized, you are doing it wrong. You want to focus them on how to grow. Be that be letting go, coming to terms, whatever. Really depends on the trauma.
  - throwaway173738 1y ago
    It’s attitudinal. Some people just don’t want to stay stuck in their childhood forever because there are too many things they want in life. Is it better to just carry your childhood around and relive it all the time? Some of that is probably fine but do it to the exclusion of your present moments and it’s probably maladaptive.
    - duskdozer 1y ago
      It sounds like you're trying to argue against a trauma model, but you're basically just describing the state of someone having PTSD and a typical end goal state of therapeutic treatment for it.
- crazygringo 1y ago
  > But thinking kids are made weaker from any and all trauma is just reductive to the point of not useful. Huh? No, that's the whole point, how important and useful it is. It's to separate out the non-traumatic experiences where you recover just fine... from the genuinely traumatic experiences that do harm you, and for which professional help is really useful in recovering from.
  - taeric 1y ago
    But you haven't separated these things out. You have definitionally stated that some things exist. But you have no method to separate the genuinely traumatic from the potentially traumatic. Broken bones. Death in the family. Death of the family. Moving. Friends changing. Attacks from coyotes. Loss of pets through unknown reasons. Loss of neighborhood friends to suicide? Which of these is genuinely traumatic? My point is that this is very individual to the kid. I further posit that many kids will make things more traumatic if you ask them to do so. Worse, I have seen "was rude to me at camp two years ago" be a significant source of grievance to kids. The whole elevator scene of "I hate you" versus "I never even think of you" is very very real.
    - anotherscore12 1y ago
      Had to post as anon well because feels safer that way. I don't think you really understand the difference between traumatic events and traumatic disorders. There are 2 fundamental aspects of trauma that without removing will yield worsening mental and physical states. 1. Cause of trauma must be stopped 2. Feeling of the loss of control As someone whose experienced both childhood neglect and mental abuse, The Body Keeps Score and was able to help me unravel and recover very from incredibly complex childhood and then adulthood trauma. What you have listed are traumatic events they create a shock and body's sympathetic nervous system recovers. Now say you are in a constant state of shock everyday for your entire life how is the nervous system going to adapt to that? That's right it changes and has to create maladaptive protective mechanisms, socially this doesn't make sense but biologically it does. It takes digging through this massive book(1000+ pages), to find triggers, possible treatments and improvements 10+ years to get comfortable. But if you ever talk to people with PTSD they are never really healed, mostly scarred but have recurring physiological issues they must cope with.
- davorak 1y ago
  jaybrendansmith is talking specifically about childhood trauma not any trauma that happens in childhood. > But not childhood trauma...that makes you weaker I have only seen "childhood trauma" defined and used as something that has lasting impact. That definition likely comes from studies that study trauma that happens in childhood and how it can have a lasting impact. Regardless of where it comes from that is how the phrase is typically used. It would be nice if the field came up with better terms or a better scale that separated out the different traumas by lasting impact, but my assumption is that if it was easy to come up with that kind of scale it probably would have already happened, here is hoping it is easy and it is low hanging from some soon to come along phd student though.
  - taeric 1y ago
    The hazard I'm pointing at, though, is that this will be very individual. And what is a difficult thing to overcome for some kids, will be trivial for others. And seemingly flat out impossible for others, still.
    - davorak 1y ago
      Sure that is true of any trauma physical or otherwise. It is always some part genetic and some part environment. I assume just like for other areas we have a clear picture of a narrow subset of factors that is clearly genetic and some is clearly environment, but we do not have a clear picture on the majority of factors yet.

taeric 1y ago

I didn't say that, though? Some things that don't kill you can, obviously, make you really really weak. Isn't hard to find examples on that front. Polio is the poster case. But thinking kids are made weaker from any and all trauma is just reductive to the point of not useful. I suspect we would largely align on the idea that growth is the important part. We would also largely agree that trauma is real. Question is how do you combine those ideas?

OvbiousError 1y ago
From what I've seen in my direct circle, childhood trauma leaves deep deep traces, and not in a good way. The idea that childhood trauma encourages growth to me sounds like pull yourself up by your bootstraps kind of rhetoric.
- taeric 1y ago
  And where did I say that? You seem to be purposely misreading my posts. I said growth is the important part. If you are focusing people on identifying themselves as traumatized, you are doing it wrong. You want to focus them on how to grow. Be that be letting go, coming to terms, whatever. Really depends on the trauma.
- throwaway173738 1y ago
  It’s attitudinal. Some people just don’t want to stay stuck in their childhood forever because there are too many things they want in life. Is it better to just carry your childhood around and relive it all the time? Some of that is probably fine but do it to the exclusion of your present moments and it’s probably maladaptive.
  - duskdozer 1y ago
    It sounds like you're trying to argue against a trauma model, but you're basically just describing the state of someone having PTSD and a typical end goal state of therapeutic treatment for it.
crazygringo 1y ago
> But thinking kids are made weaker from any and all trauma is just reductive to the point of not useful. Huh? No, that's the whole point, how important and useful it is. It's to separate out the non-traumatic experiences where you recover just fine... from the genuinely traumatic experiences that do harm you, and for which professional help is really useful in recovering from.
- taeric 1y ago
  But you haven't separated these things out. You have definitionally stated that some things exist. But you have no method to separate the genuinely traumatic from the potentially traumatic. Broken bones. Death in the family. Death of the family. Moving. Friends changing. Attacks from coyotes. Loss of pets through unknown reasons. Loss of neighborhood friends to suicide? Which of these is genuinely traumatic? My point is that this is very individual to the kid. I further posit that many kids will make things more traumatic if you ask them to do so. Worse, I have seen "was rude to me at camp two years ago" be a significant source of grievance to kids. The whole elevator scene of "I hate you" versus "I never even think of you" is very very real.
  - anotherscore12 1y ago
    Had to post as anon well because feels safer that way. I don't think you really understand the difference between traumatic events and traumatic disorders. There are 2 fundamental aspects of trauma that without removing will yield worsening mental and physical states. 1. Cause of trauma must be stopped 2. Feeling of the loss of control As someone whose experienced both childhood neglect and mental abuse, The Body Keeps Score and was able to help me unravel and recover very from incredibly complex childhood and then adulthood trauma. What you have listed are traumatic events they create a shock and body's sympathetic nervous system recovers. Now say you are in a constant state of shock everyday for your entire life how is the nervous system going to adapt to that? That's right it changes and has to create maladaptive protective mechanisms, socially this doesn't make sense but biologically it does. It takes digging through this massive book(1000+ pages), to find triggers, possible treatments and improvements 10+ years to get comfortable. But if you ever talk to people with PTSD they are never really healed, mostly scarred but have recurring physiological issues they must cope with.
davorak 1y ago
jaybrendansmith is talking specifically about childhood trauma not any trauma that happens in childhood. > But not childhood trauma...that makes you weaker I have only seen "childhood trauma" defined and used as something that has lasting impact. That definition likely comes from studies that study trauma that happens in childhood and how it can have a lasting impact. Regardless of where it comes from that is how the phrase is typically used. It would be nice if the field came up with better terms or a better scale that separated out the different traumas by lasting impact, but my assumption is that if it was easy to come up with that kind of scale it probably would have already happened, here is hoping it is easy and it is low hanging from some soon to come along phd student though.
- taeric 1y ago
  The hazard I'm pointing at, though, is that this will be very individual. And what is a difficult thing to overcome for some kids, will be trivial for others. And seemingly flat out impossible for others, still.
  - davorak 1y ago
    Sure that is true of any trauma physical or otherwise. It is always some part genetic and some part environment. I assume just like for other areas we have a clear picture of a narrow subset of factors that is clearly genetic and some is clearly environment, but we do not have a clear picture on the majority of factors yet.