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Humans and dogs have evolved together to be cooperative… would you feel common ground with a predatory fish? Or a plant? An insect colony?

redundantly 1y ago
> would you feel common ground with a predatory fish? The fish needs to eat, I need to eat. The fish has the drive to procreate, so do I, or at least I have a sex drive. > Or a plant? We both need sunlight to live, we both require a breathable atmosphere. We both need water. > An insect colony? Much of the above applies here as well, in addition to that I can see similarities between a large insect colony and our large cities, how things move, how roads and buildings are adjusted for efficiencies, how bad actors can harm the system. Yes, I can see common ground between myself and all three of those things you listed.
- aeve890 1y ago
  Not the parent comment but what's your point? You can't use that common ground for anything, let alone communication, can you?. The fish wants to fuck? You want to too, what now? How do you stablish a common ground to understanding based on such things?
  - ribosometronome 1y ago
    Pertinent here is that said fish has done something notable enough to have been discovered from, literally, across the galaxy. Those fish built some sort of civilization such that they're sending our lasers, radio waves, or building Dyson spheres.
- dessimus 1y ago
  And yet, look at how pretty much every human society deals with immigrants/refugees. We most often find the least common ground between races, ethnicities, nationalities, or any other way to create outgroups, and you think humanity will handle an intelligent extraterrestrial civilization well?
  - raducu 1y ago
    > We most often find the least common ground between races, ethnicities, nationalities, or any other way to create outgroups, and you think humanity will handle an intelligent extraterrestrial civilization well? But we find PLENTY of common grownds when we talk to the smartesr of those groups and races, across milenia and continents via groups, scientific forums, discussion books. We find very little common grounds when we have forced encounters with the uneducated trouble makers up to no good, in systems designed for high trust abused by said individuals.
    - dessimus 1y ago
      > We find very little common grounds when we have forced encounters with the uneducated trouble makers up to no good, in systems designed for high trust abused by said individuals. I'd bet good money lots of non-Western European civilizations had that same thought after the English, Spanish, Portuguese, etc. rolled up on their shores.
      - raducu 1y ago
        > I'd bet good money lots of non-Western European civilizations had that same thought after the English, Spanish, Portuguese, etc. rolled up on their shores. And you'd be correct.
LogicFailsMe 1y ago
We all share many similar biological imperatives And these contrived examples because we all evolved on the same planet. Even the worst case scenario of the Dark Forest has many anthropomorphic priors within. Imagine an intelligent shade of blue. Thank you, Douglas Adams. I suspect we have no idea WTF is out there and I'm not a carbon chauvinist like Carl Sagan was. But I wish I would have lived long enough to find out and I suspect that won't be the case.
- raducu 1y ago
  > Imagine an intelligent shade of blue A finite intelligence, willing to talk across the galaxy, talking in finite sequences, using engineering and maths? I'm sure there's a lot of universal aprioris
  - jychang 1y ago
    There's also a lot of "universals" that people take for granted as universal when it really isn't universal. Things off the top of my head that humans usually take for granted as "universals": - Separation of memory and DNA. What if memories were stored in DNA and can be passed between individuals? - Inability to share memories. What if memories can be passed around like semen and sweat? - Inability to easily read others' minds. What if kissing/touching someone would share all of each others' thoughts? How would that alien society develop differently? - Existence of the ego. What if they live in a constant state of ego death, like some humans on certain drugs? - Separation of the id and the superego. This is... one way to solve an alignment problem, I suppose. Imagine a species which replaced their sense of hunger/sexual craving, with a craving for morality. And they execute creatures like humans when they see a human do anything immoral, such as eating an ice cream when it can reduce your lifespan and thus deprive your children of a parent, or deprive your society of tax dollars. - And many other possible examples that i can come up with that exists within human "thoughtspace", let alone concepts that do not exist within human thoughtspace How would you feel if you met an alien species that communicates by raping their children? If that sounds weird to you, what if they can communicate via the DNA in sperm, so it'd be somewhat similar to how human sex transmits information from the human male to the human female?
godelski 1y ago
> would you feel common ground with a predatory fish? Or a plant? An insect colony? Yes. Humans famously show compassion for all of these. I don't think alligators co-evolved with Steve Irwin. Humans even show compassion for rocks and non-living things. We show compassion for the literal ground. We anthropomorphize it. Is this anthropomorphization not an attempt to understand and have compassion. Regardless, you just asked how OP feels. I don't know how they do, but I can say how I do. "Yes"
- circlefavshape 1y ago
  In my cutlery drawer we have a couple of mismatched forks, and one of them in particular is weird-looking. Somehow I don't like saying that it's weird-looking if it can "hear" me (i.e. if it's on the table rather than in the drawer)
- lelanthran 1y ago
  >> would you feel common ground with a predatory fish? Or a plant? An insect colony? > Yes. > Humans famously show compassion for all of these. But alligators rarely show compassion for humans, barracudas are not known for saving drowning babies and plants frequently show no compassion to anything. IOW, Alien life might resemble alligator mindsets more than human ones. We don't know.
  - swiftcoder 1y ago
    > But alligators rarely show compassion for humans, barracudas are not known for saving drowning babies and plants frequently show no compassion to anything. On the other hand, even predatory mammals are documented on occasion to render aid to humans (i.e. dolphins rescuing humans from drowning, or intervening in shark attacks), and in domestic settings can be convinced to raise young from other species (domestic cats/dogs will raise most baby animals if introduced correctly). It's not as cut and dried as a hard species boundary on compassion.
    - godelski 1y ago
      Not to mention that traveling interstellar distances requires the work of multiple lifeforms working in conjunction. Which requires some form of compassion, slavery, or a really really intelligent and long living creature that is able to survey the land, smelt the materials, machine every screw, and build an interstellar spaceship. Even if it knew how to do such a thing, the time alone would be astronomical, so it really reduces the odds. Compassion seems just a natural evolutionary direction as it is far more energy efficient for creatures to form coalitions.
BLKNSLVR 1y ago
I like the inverse question: Would you, as a species advanced enough to have historically observed and begun to understand human behaviour, attempt to cooperatively interact with humans?
- Kiboneu 1y ago
  No.

redundantly 1y ago

> would you feel common ground with a predatory fish? The fish needs to eat, I need to eat. The fish has the drive to procreate, so do I, or at least I have a sex drive. > Or a plant? We both need sunlight to live, we both require a breathable atmosphere. We both need water. > An insect colony? Much of the above applies here as well, in addition to that I can see similarities between a large insect colony and our large cities, how things move, how roads and buildings are adjusted for efficiencies, how bad actors can harm the system. Yes, I can see common ground between myself and all three of those things you listed.

aeve890 1y ago
Not the parent comment but what's your point? You can't use that common ground for anything, let alone communication, can you?. The fish wants to fuck? You want to too, what now? How do you stablish a common ground to understanding based on such things?
- ribosometronome 1y ago
  Pertinent here is that said fish has done something notable enough to have been discovered from, literally, across the galaxy. Those fish built some sort of civilization such that they're sending our lasers, radio waves, or building Dyson spheres.
dessimus 1y ago
And yet, look at how pretty much every human society deals with immigrants/refugees. We most often find the least common ground between races, ethnicities, nationalities, or any other way to create outgroups, and you think humanity will handle an intelligent extraterrestrial civilization well?
- raducu 1y ago
  > We most often find the least common ground between races, ethnicities, nationalities, or any other way to create outgroups, and you think humanity will handle an intelligent extraterrestrial civilization well? But we find PLENTY of common grownds when we talk to the smartesr of those groups and races, across milenia and continents via groups, scientific forums, discussion books. We find very little common grounds when we have forced encounters with the uneducated trouble makers up to no good, in systems designed for high trust abused by said individuals.
  - dessimus 1y ago
    > We find very little common grounds when we have forced encounters with the uneducated trouble makers up to no good, in systems designed for high trust abused by said individuals. I'd bet good money lots of non-Western European civilizations had that same thought after the English, Spanish, Portuguese, etc. rolled up on their shores.
    - raducu 1y ago
      > I'd bet good money lots of non-Western European civilizations had that same thought after the English, Spanish, Portuguese, etc. rolled up on their shores. And you'd be correct.

LogicFailsMe 1y ago

We all share many similar biological imperatives And these contrived examples because we all evolved on the same planet. Even the worst case scenario of the Dark Forest has many anthropomorphic priors within. Imagine an intelligent shade of blue. Thank you, Douglas Adams. I suspect we have no idea WTF is out there and I'm not a carbon chauvinist like Carl Sagan was. But I wish I would have lived long enough to find out and I suspect that won't be the case.

raducu 1y ago
> Imagine an intelligent shade of blue A finite intelligence, willing to talk across the galaxy, talking in finite sequences, using engineering and maths? I'm sure there's a lot of universal aprioris
- jychang 1y ago
  There's also a lot of "universals" that people take for granted as universal when it really isn't universal. Things off the top of my head that humans usually take for granted as "universals": - Separation of memory and DNA. What if memories were stored in DNA and can be passed between individuals? - Inability to share memories. What if memories can be passed around like semen and sweat? - Inability to easily read others' minds. What if kissing/touching someone would share all of each others' thoughts? How would that alien society develop differently? - Existence of the ego. What if they live in a constant state of ego death, like some humans on certain drugs? - Separation of the id and the superego. This is... one way to solve an alignment problem, I suppose. Imagine a species which replaced their sense of hunger/sexual craving, with a craving for morality. And they execute creatures like humans when they see a human do anything immoral, such as eating an ice cream when it can reduce your lifespan and thus deprive your children of a parent, or deprive your society of tax dollars. - And many other possible examples that i can come up with that exists within human "thoughtspace", let alone concepts that do not exist within human thoughtspace How would you feel if you met an alien species that communicates by raping their children? If that sounds weird to you, what if they can communicate via the DNA in sperm, so it'd be somewhat similar to how human sex transmits information from the human male to the human female?

godelski 1y ago

> would you feel common ground with a predatory fish? Or a plant? An insect colony? Yes. Humans famously show compassion for all of these. I don't think alligators co-evolved with Steve Irwin. Humans even show compassion for rocks and non-living things. We show compassion for the literal ground. We anthropomorphize it. Is this anthropomorphization not an attempt to understand and have compassion. Regardless, you just asked how OP feels. I don't know how they do, but I can say how I do. "Yes"

circlefavshape 1y ago
In my cutlery drawer we have a couple of mismatched forks, and one of them in particular is weird-looking. Somehow I don't like saying that it's weird-looking if it can "hear" me (i.e. if it's on the table rather than in the drawer)
lelanthran 1y ago
>> would you feel common ground with a predatory fish? Or a plant? An insect colony? > Yes. > Humans famously show compassion for all of these. But alligators rarely show compassion for humans, barracudas are not known for saving drowning babies and plants frequently show no compassion to anything. IOW, Alien life might resemble alligator mindsets more than human ones. We don't know.
- swiftcoder 1y ago
  > But alligators rarely show compassion for humans, barracudas are not known for saving drowning babies and plants frequently show no compassion to anything. On the other hand, even predatory mammals are documented on occasion to render aid to humans (i.e. dolphins rescuing humans from drowning, or intervening in shark attacks), and in domestic settings can be convinced to raise young from other species (domestic cats/dogs will raise most baby animals if introduced correctly). It's not as cut and dried as a hard species boundary on compassion.
  - godelski 1y ago
    Not to mention that traveling interstellar distances requires the work of multiple lifeforms working in conjunction. Which requires some form of compassion, slavery, or a really really intelligent and long living creature that is able to survey the land, smelt the materials, machine every screw, and build an interstellar spaceship. Even if it knew how to do such a thing, the time alone would be astronomical, so it really reduces the odds. Compassion seems just a natural evolutionary direction as it is far more energy efficient for creatures to form coalitions.

BLKNSLVR 1y ago

I like the inverse question: Would you, as a species advanced enough to have historically observed and begun to understand human behaviour, attempt to cooperatively interact with humans?

Kiboneu 1y ago
No.