6 ms·

For a somber, deeply intellectual view of what could happen, I can't recommend enough Stanislaw Lem's His Master's Voice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_Mast

For a somber, deeply intellectual view of what could happen, I can't recommend enough Stanislaw Lem's His Master's Voice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_Master%27s_Voice_%28novel%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_Master%27s_Voice_%28novel%... "Given that our civilization is unable to assimilate well even those concepts that originate in human heads when they appear outside its main current, although the creators of those concepts are, after all, children of the same age—how could we have assumed that we would be capable of understanding a civilization totally unlike ours, if it addressed us across the cosmic gulf?"

chistev 1y ago
Mathematics
themafia 1y ago
Me and my dog cannot talk. I understand my dog and he understands me. If they experience death then we have massive common ground already.
- beAbU 1y ago
  And you are comfortable being the dog in this cosmic relationship then?
  - conartist6 1y ago
    it's that we're made out of meat: https://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/thinkingMeat.html https://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/think...
    - carpo 1y ago
      Man I love that story.
  - estimator7292 1y ago
    Does it make you uncomfortable to think an alien civilization might be somehow superior to humans? That's a pretty immature thing to be insecure about.
    - dustfinger 1y ago
      If they mean us harm, then yes, I am insecure about it.
      - ZenoArrow 1y ago
        What if they're indifferent about our existence? Would you be insecure knowing that a superior species existed that didn't think we were interesting enough to be bothered with?
        dustfinger 1y ago
        As long as they don’t plan to demolish Earth to make way for an intergalactic highway (a reference to The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy), we’re fine. Humans are not out to get ants, but imagine how many ant colonies we have destroyed to build our highways. Indifference does not preclude a threat.
    - goopypoop 1y ago
      Given that my opinions are correct, a superior being would have opinions which tend toward mine. So I'll be fine, dunno about the rest of you punks
    - godelski 1y ago
      If they were to visit us then they would be de facto technologically superior to us. But I'm sure we'd figure out a way to feel superior to them. And what's it matter? There's lots of people superior to me. I'm not really concerned unless they're trying to do me harm. But that anger isn't due to their superiority, it is due to their harm.
      - BLKNSLVR 1y ago
  - LexiMax 1y ago
    Comfortable? I'd call that the best case scenario. If they treated us like dogs they'd already be better stewards of humanity than we are.
- manquer 1y ago
  Hardly a fair or realistic comparison. Domesticated mammalian[1] pet which share 80+% of our DNA and bred and naturally self-selected over few ten thousand generations for their obedience and take fair amount of training from birth is not the same as anything else on earth let alone from another planet. [1] Domesticating of non mammalian animals is already quite hard with limited true successes, some birds probably come the closest.
  - typeofhuman 1y ago
    Maybe the author should add this exception to their quote.
- Kiboneu 1y ago
  Humans and dogs have evolved together to be cooperative… would you feel common ground with a predatory fish? Or a plant? An insect colony?
  - redundantly 1y ago
    > would you feel common ground with a predatory fish? The fish needs to eat, I need to eat. The fish has the drive to procreate, so do I, or at least I have a sex drive. > Or a plant? We both need sunlight to live, we both require a breathable atmosphere. We both need water. > An insect colony? Much of the above applies here as well, in addition to that I can see similarities between a large insect colony and our large cities, how things move, how roads and buildings are adjusted for efficiencies, how bad actors can harm the system. Yes, I can see common ground between myself and all three of those things you listed.
    - aeve890 1y ago
      Not the parent comment but what's your point? You can't use that common ground for anything, let alone communication, can you?. The fish wants to fuck? You want to too, what now? How do you stablish a common ground to understanding based on such things?
      - ribosometronome 1y ago
        Pertinent here is that said fish has done something notable enough to have been discovered from, literally, across the galaxy. Those fish built some sort of civilization such that they're sending our lasers, radio waves, or building Dyson spheres.
    - dessimus 1y ago
      And yet, look at how pretty much every human society deals with immigrants/refugees. We most often find the least common ground between races, ethnicities, nationalities, or any other way to create outgroups, and you think humanity will handle an intelligent extraterrestrial civilization well?
- LargoLasskhyfv 1y ago
  What if they are telepathic hive minds, able to regrow lost minds like some species on earth regrow limbs, thus having no concept of individual death as such? Or something like the Cylon resurrection technology, which downloads your memories into the latest fast cloned avatar/physical body?
  - anonzzzies 1y ago
    Maybe they are 100k-millions years ahead of us and are basically immortal AI's with iqs of 200k+ (so we won't understand anything they do or say and they find us literally less interesting than grains of sand) which are clustered via an higher dimension quantum entangled connection to the home world and the backup world? For sure if we manage to create AGI (no timelines; let's say we have it in 10k years from now and better than human body robots to match), we will surely shoot that into space to be 'forever' by the millions to explore. I would assume that every advanced race would do exactly that and if they are millions of years ahead of us, I cannot phantom them still being close to the barbaric mortal animals that we are, or they wouldn't have survived that long.
- godelski 1y ago
  I've never bought Wittgenstein's Lion for similar reasons. I am able to communicate with my cat, though it is not easy. We don't need language to do this. It is also important to note that understanding is not equal. Certainly I understand my cat far better than she understands me. Famously Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish are mutually intelligible[0], yet this does not create equal understanding between all parties. Norwegians fair the best while Swedes are out of luck. It probably isn't surprising that this happens even when all speakers are speaking the same language. You can speak in front of 10 people and you may hear 15 different interpretations, none need be what you intended. Language is messy. It's incredible communication happens with it. But we're smart creatures, and there's ways to establish frames of reference. We have theory of mind, even if we don't all use it. But using it certainly helps. Communication is best when all parties are trying their best to understand one another. Sometimes we confuse that to mean we're trying because we're talking. You're not trying unless you're considering what was intended to be said, despite the words used. To which, that, I agree is the lion. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Danish,_Norwegian_and_Swedish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Danish,_Norwegia...
  - thaumasiotes 1y ago
    > Famously Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish are mutually intelligible[0], yet this does not create equal understanding between all parties. Norwegians fair the best while Swedes are out of luck. Except that they aren't mutually intelligible. See what a Dane thinks: https://satwcomic.com/cold-reality-shower https://satwcomic.com/cold-reality-shower > From the very beginning when I started making this comic Swedes and Norwegians have been telling me jokes about how weird Danish is, and how it's so weird not even Danes understand it so they have to speak Swedish or Norwegian to communicate. The Norwegian and Swedish languages are a lot closer to each other, so I can see where the joke comes from. > That's all well and good and I laughed along, until I started meeting a lot of Swedes and Norwegians at conventions and realized a lot of them honest to god think that Danes understand Norwegian and Swedish Swedish and Norwegian are mutually intelligible (or if they aren't there's enough interaction that difficulties don't arise). Danish isn't mutually intelligible with either. Written Danish and written Norwegian are mutually intelligible, because they have conservative orthography. But the languages have diverged.
- blueflow 1y ago
  Mammals have common roots and communications, for example, huffing.
- Cthulhu_ 1y ago
  To bring in some cosmic horror, is an ant aware of humans? Can a deep sea fish comprehend what is happening when a deep sea probe illuminates it? Of course, that has the assumption that aliens are a bajillion years ahead of us in terms of evolution, size, consciousness etc, that's only one school of thought. If there's an alien race with comparable intellect and the like, I'm confident we'd detect it and communication would be possible. Anyway my cat understands me just fine, she just chooses to ignore me.
- M95D 1y ago
  Your dog doesn't have political opinions; aliens most probably will.
lowbloodsugar 1y ago
Good sci-fi novel that included an alien that lacked consciousness: Blindsight by Peter Watts. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindsight_(Watts_novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindsight_(Watts_novel)
- BLKNSLVR 1y ago
  +1 great read for an actually alien alien. Echopraxia not as good, but I still enjoyed it.

chistev 1y ago

Mathematics

themafia 1y ago

Me and my dog cannot talk. I understand my dog and he understands me. If they experience death then we have massive common ground already.

beAbU 1y ago
And you are comfortable being the dog in this cosmic relationship then?
- conartist6 1y ago
  it's that we're made out of meat: https://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/thinkingMeat.html https://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/think...
  - carpo 1y ago
    Man I love that story.
- estimator7292 1y ago
  Does it make you uncomfortable to think an alien civilization might be somehow superior to humans? That's a pretty immature thing to be insecure about.
  - dustfinger 1y ago
    If they mean us harm, then yes, I am insecure about it.
    - ZenoArrow 1y ago
      What if they're indifferent about our existence? Would you be insecure knowing that a superior species existed that didn't think we were interesting enough to be bothered with?
      - dustfinger 1y ago
        As long as they don’t plan to demolish Earth to make way for an intergalactic highway (a reference to The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy), we’re fine. Humans are not out to get ants, but imagine how many ant colonies we have destroyed to build our highways. Indifference does not preclude a threat.
  - goopypoop 1y ago
    Given that my opinions are correct, a superior being would have opinions which tend toward mine. So I'll be fine, dunno about the rest of you punks
  - godelski 1y ago
    If they were to visit us then they would be de facto technologically superior to us. But I'm sure we'd figure out a way to feel superior to them. And what's it matter? There's lots of people superior to me. I'm not really concerned unless they're trying to do me harm. But that anger isn't due to their superiority, it is due to their harm.
    - BLKNSLVR 1y ago
- LexiMax 1y ago
  Comfortable? I'd call that the best case scenario. If they treated us like dogs they'd already be better stewards of humanity than we are.
manquer 1y ago
Hardly a fair or realistic comparison. Domesticated mammalian[1] pet which share 80+% of our DNA and bred and naturally self-selected over few ten thousand generations for their obedience and take fair amount of training from birth is not the same as anything else on earth let alone from another planet. [1] Domesticating of non mammalian animals is already quite hard with limited true successes, some birds probably come the closest.
- typeofhuman 1y ago
  Maybe the author should add this exception to their quote.
Kiboneu 1y ago
Humans and dogs have evolved together to be cooperative… would you feel common ground with a predatory fish? Or a plant? An insect colony?
- redundantly 1y ago
  > would you feel common ground with a predatory fish? The fish needs to eat, I need to eat. The fish has the drive to procreate, so do I, or at least I have a sex drive. > Or a plant? We both need sunlight to live, we both require a breathable atmosphere. We both need water. > An insect colony? Much of the above applies here as well, in addition to that I can see similarities between a large insect colony and our large cities, how things move, how roads and buildings are adjusted for efficiencies, how bad actors can harm the system. Yes, I can see common ground between myself and all three of those things you listed.
  - aeve890 1y ago
    Not the parent comment but what's your point? You can't use that common ground for anything, let alone communication, can you?. The fish wants to fuck? You want to too, what now? How do you stablish a common ground to understanding based on such things?
    - ribosometronome 1y ago
      Pertinent here is that said fish has done something notable enough to have been discovered from, literally, across the galaxy. Those fish built some sort of civilization such that they're sending our lasers, radio waves, or building Dyson spheres.
  - dessimus 1y ago
    And yet, look at how pretty much every human society deals with immigrants/refugees. We most often find the least common ground between races, ethnicities, nationalities, or any other way to create outgroups, and you think humanity will handle an intelligent extraterrestrial civilization well?
LargoLasskhyfv 1y ago
What if they are telepathic hive minds, able to regrow lost minds like some species on earth regrow limbs, thus having no concept of individual death as such? Or something like the Cylon resurrection technology, which downloads your memories into the latest fast cloned avatar/physical body?
- anonzzzies 1y ago
  Maybe they are 100k-millions years ahead of us and are basically immortal AI's with iqs of 200k+ (so we won't understand anything they do or say and they find us literally less interesting than grains of sand) which are clustered via an higher dimension quantum entangled connection to the home world and the backup world? For sure if we manage to create AGI (no timelines; let's say we have it in 10k years from now and better than human body robots to match), we will surely shoot that into space to be 'forever' by the millions to explore. I would assume that every advanced race would do exactly that and if they are millions of years ahead of us, I cannot phantom them still being close to the barbaric mortal animals that we are, or they wouldn't have survived that long.
godelski 1y ago
I've never bought Wittgenstein's Lion for similar reasons. I am able to communicate with my cat, though it is not easy. We don't need language to do this. It is also important to note that understanding is not equal. Certainly I understand my cat far better than she understands me. Famously Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish are mutually intelligible[0], yet this does not create equal understanding between all parties. Norwegians fair the best while Swedes are out of luck. It probably isn't surprising that this happens even when all speakers are speaking the same language. You can speak in front of 10 people and you may hear 15 different interpretations, none need be what you intended. Language is messy. It's incredible communication happens with it. But we're smart creatures, and there's ways to establish frames of reference. We have theory of mind, even if we don't all use it. But using it certainly helps. Communication is best when all parties are trying their best to understand one another. Sometimes we confuse that to mean we're trying because we're talking. You're not trying unless you're considering what was intended to be said, despite the words used. To which, that, I agree is the lion. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Danish,_Norwegian_and_Swedish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Danish,_Norwegia...
- thaumasiotes 1y ago
  > Famously Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish are mutually intelligible[0], yet this does not create equal understanding between all parties. Norwegians fair the best while Swedes are out of luck. Except that they aren't mutually intelligible. See what a Dane thinks: https://satwcomic.com/cold-reality-shower https://satwcomic.com/cold-reality-shower > From the very beginning when I started making this comic Swedes and Norwegians have been telling me jokes about how weird Danish is, and how it's so weird not even Danes understand it so they have to speak Swedish or Norwegian to communicate. The Norwegian and Swedish languages are a lot closer to each other, so I can see where the joke comes from. > That's all well and good and I laughed along, until I started meeting a lot of Swedes and Norwegians at conventions and realized a lot of them honest to god think that Danes understand Norwegian and Swedish Swedish and Norwegian are mutually intelligible (or if they aren't there's enough interaction that difficulties don't arise). Danish isn't mutually intelligible with either. Written Danish and written Norwegian are mutually intelligible, because they have conservative orthography. But the languages have diverged.
blueflow 1y ago
Mammals have common roots and communications, for example, huffing.
Cthulhu_ 1y ago
To bring in some cosmic horror, is an ant aware of humans? Can a deep sea fish comprehend what is happening when a deep sea probe illuminates it? Of course, that has the assumption that aliens are a bajillion years ahead of us in terms of evolution, size, consciousness etc, that's only one school of thought. If there's an alien race with comparable intellect and the like, I'm confident we'd detect it and communication would be possible. Anyway my cat understands me just fine, she just chooses to ignore me.
M95D 1y ago
Your dog doesn't have political opinions; aliens most probably will.

lowbloodsugar 1y ago

Good sci-fi novel that included an alien that lacked consciousness: Blindsight by Peter Watts. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindsight_(Watts_novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindsight_(Watts_novel)

BLKNSLVR 1y ago
+1 great read for an actually alien alien. Echopraxia not as good, but I still enjoyed it.