4 ms·

I'm kind of surprised this is legal. Just using an internet feed as a workaround to not having a work permit just seems like easy fruit. These workers wouldn't

I'm kind of surprised this is legal. Just using an internet feed as a workaround to not having a work permit just seems like easy fruit. These workers wouldn't be allowed to do that role in-person, why are they allowed to do it remotely?

RA_Fisher 1y ago
Competition is good and makes us all better off, don’t be afraid.
Tade0 1y ago
Why shouldn't they be? They're not competing for local resources, which is the main point of contention regarding immigration.
- free_bip 1y ago
  But they literally are... Instead of hiring a Japanese person, they're hiring someone from the Philippines.
  - Tade0 1y ago
    Japan's unemployment rate over the last decade averaged below 3%. That is essentially full employment with jobs to spare. Hardly any takers for those positions.
- gruez 1y ago
  >They're not competing for local resources, which is the main point of contention regarding immigration. Isn't "competing for local resources" just a fig leaf for "I don't want to lose my job to some foreigner"? That's a far better theory because it explains both anti-immigration sentiment as well as anti-globalization/offshoring sentiment.
  - Tade0 1y ago
    Doesn't account for e.g. British pensioners who, back before Brexit, would buy property in Spain and spend their retirement there, putting considerable pressure on local healthcare. Similarly, there's a growing resentment in Japan towards real estate bros, who buy several properties just to rent them out.
- lesuorac 1y ago
  Could you load up a 747 and fly them in for the day and then fly them out for the night? Why is that so much different than them controlling a robot remotely? If you want people to be able to immigrate into your country and work thats fine; just make it the law!
  - nairboon 1y ago
    Even if you fly them in and out, they'd still need a work visa. Controlling an avatar-robot could thus indeed be seen as a scheme to circumvent working visas.
  - Tade0 1y ago
    > Why is that so much different than them controlling a robot remotely? Plenty of consequences from people being physically present there. You have to clear customs, account for smuggling, human trafficking, epidemiological risks, possibility of people fleeing or becoming stranded in the destination country for whatever reason.
gruez 1y ago
Do you think offshore call centers are also "workarounds" for work permits? You can make basically the same argument against them as well.
- Frieren 1y ago
  > Do you think offshore call centers are also "workarounds" for work permits? Yes. And I hope that call centers were forced to be in the same country that the recipients of the call. If it is not worth the cost, then they should not be doing the call.
- pjmlp 1y ago
  Actually they are, in many cases operating in gray zone as they work on projects that in theory should not leave the country of origin, and having a VPN or SSH is useless when the actual computer screen is on foreign soil.
emsign 1y ago
The Japanese think having foreigners in their country is worse than no workers right. I'm not surprised.
veidr 1y ago
That doesn't make sense, at all. Why are you allowed to pay a foreign person/company to write software, or marketing copy, or legal documents, or... whatever? They are doing the work elsewhere, and it would be suicidal for any economy to mandate only using domestic contractors to do all work. (Also, just a side note, even though logically irrelevant: it's not at all the case that these foreigner+robot combos are taking local jobs; I live in Tokyo and have seen that the convenience stores are desperately seeking staff, even 1 day a week, and paying more for it... they just can't find enough (yes, partly because immigration is pretty difficult here).)
- lesuorac 1y ago
  What's the point of a work visa if you can just bypass it with a robot? IIUC, typically you don't hire foreign individuals for "your company". "your company" sets up a subsidiary in that foreign country and they work "locally" for the foreign subsidiary. And so the difference is that your local company would _import_ the work products from that foreign company and pay any relevant tariffs (see Nintendo of America paying tariffs from Nintendo Switch 2s produced by Nintendo of Japan). Now, IIUC the tariffs for digital goods are typically 0% so it's pretty simple to import them but you're still following a law allowing for the importation of a digital good.
  - veidr 1y ago
    The robot control instructions are a digital good. The main reason work visas are required is not to prevent foreigners from doing work, it's to restrict and control their ability to live in the country, send their kids to school, receive medical care or whatever other social services might be available to residents, or do whatever kind of activity that the government doesn't want people to do and believes foreigners might do (discussing Tiananmen Square, disparaging Charlie Cook, advocating for gay rights, petty crime — whatever it is). Hiring a foreign company, or foreign contractor, to perform work in their own country is almost always allowed. This is fundamentally not any different than a company having people answer customer phone calls in a call center in Bangalore.
renewiltord 1y ago
Yeah, it’s weird but sometimes we buy foreign banana and sell it here rather than make banana here. Maybe this is loophole around worker laws and we should only be allowed to buy local banana. Sometimes I wonder, am I commit immigration fraud for buy Fuji apple from China? I have not get work visa for apple picker man. Maybe a crime. I will confess ICE. We need to sort this out. We’re in a crisis.
quantumcotton 1y ago
Imagine how many clever loopholes her discovered with a 100k Visa. We essentially just don't make the money now lol.

RA_Fisher 1y ago

Competition is good and makes us all better off, don’t be afraid.

Tade0 1y ago

Why shouldn't they be? They're not competing for local resources, which is the main point of contention regarding immigration.

free_bip 1y ago
But they literally are... Instead of hiring a Japanese person, they're hiring someone from the Philippines.
- Tade0 1y ago
  Japan's unemployment rate over the last decade averaged below 3%. That is essentially full employment with jobs to spare. Hardly any takers for those positions.
gruez 1y ago
>They're not competing for local resources, which is the main point of contention regarding immigration. Isn't "competing for local resources" just a fig leaf for "I don't want to lose my job to some foreigner"? That's a far better theory because it explains both anti-immigration sentiment as well as anti-globalization/offshoring sentiment.
- Tade0 1y ago
  Doesn't account for e.g. British pensioners who, back before Brexit, would buy property in Spain and spend their retirement there, putting considerable pressure on local healthcare. Similarly, there's a growing resentment in Japan towards real estate bros, who buy several properties just to rent them out.
lesuorac 1y ago
Could you load up a 747 and fly them in for the day and then fly them out for the night? Why is that so much different than them controlling a robot remotely? If you want people to be able to immigrate into your country and work thats fine; just make it the law!
- nairboon 1y ago
  Even if you fly them in and out, they'd still need a work visa. Controlling an avatar-robot could thus indeed be seen as a scheme to circumvent working visas.
- Tade0 1y ago
  > Why is that so much different than them controlling a robot remotely? Plenty of consequences from people being physically present there. You have to clear customs, account for smuggling, human trafficking, epidemiological risks, possibility of people fleeing or becoming stranded in the destination country for whatever reason.

gruez 1y ago

Do you think offshore call centers are also "workarounds" for work permits? You can make basically the same argument against them as well.

Frieren 1y ago
> Do you think offshore call centers are also "workarounds" for work permits? Yes. And I hope that call centers were forced to be in the same country that the recipients of the call. If it is not worth the cost, then they should not be doing the call.
pjmlp 1y ago
Actually they are, in many cases operating in gray zone as they work on projects that in theory should not leave the country of origin, and having a VPN or SSH is useless when the actual computer screen is on foreign soil.

emsign 1y ago

The Japanese think having foreigners in their country is worse than no workers right. I'm not surprised.

veidr 1y ago

That doesn't make sense, at all. Why are you allowed to pay a foreign person/company to write software, or marketing copy, or legal documents, or... whatever? They are doing the work elsewhere, and it would be suicidal for any economy to mandate only using domestic contractors to do all work. (Also, just a side note, even though logically irrelevant: it's not at all the case that these foreigner+robot combos are taking local jobs; I live in Tokyo and have seen that the convenience stores are desperately seeking staff, even 1 day a week, and paying more for it... they just can't find enough (yes, partly because immigration is pretty difficult here).)

lesuorac 1y ago
What's the point of a work visa if you can just bypass it with a robot? IIUC, typically you don't hire foreign individuals for "your company". "your company" sets up a subsidiary in that foreign country and they work "locally" for the foreign subsidiary. And so the difference is that your local company would _import_ the work products from that foreign company and pay any relevant tariffs (see Nintendo of America paying tariffs from Nintendo Switch 2s produced by Nintendo of Japan). Now, IIUC the tariffs for digital goods are typically 0% so it's pretty simple to import them but you're still following a law allowing for the importation of a digital good.
- veidr 1y ago
  The robot control instructions are a digital good. The main reason work visas are required is not to prevent foreigners from doing work, it's to restrict and control their ability to live in the country, send their kids to school, receive medical care or whatever other social services might be available to residents, or do whatever kind of activity that the government doesn't want people to do and believes foreigners might do (discussing Tiananmen Square, disparaging Charlie Cook, advocating for gay rights, petty crime — whatever it is). Hiring a foreign company, or foreign contractor, to perform work in their own country is almost always allowed. This is fundamentally not any different than a company having people answer customer phone calls in a call center in Bangalore.

renewiltord 1y ago

Yeah, it’s weird but sometimes we buy foreign banana and sell it here rather than make banana here. Maybe this is loophole around worker laws and we should only be allowed to buy local banana. Sometimes I wonder, am I commit immigration fraud for buy Fuji apple from China? I have not get work visa for apple picker man. Maybe a crime. I will confess ICE. We need to sort this out. We’re in a crisis.

quantumcotton 1y ago

Imagine how many clever loopholes her discovered with a 100k Visa. We essentially just don't make the money now lol.