48 ms·

The USA probably doesn't worry much, our Dutch government and related services all run on AWS and Microsoft Office/Azure. All internet access flows through the

The USA probably doesn't worry much, our Dutch government and related services all run on AWS and Microsoft Office/Azure. All internet access flows through the same cable the NSA has access to. Radio traffic is intercepted in multiple locations in The Netherlands. So sure, there are probably some signals the USA won't receive, but they still get the bulk of it.

crote 1y ago
> our Dutch government and related services all run on AWS and Microsoft Office/Azure And this is already being criticized over and over again. With various German government organizations now actively moving away from Microsoft and demonstrating that you don't need Outlook & Office 365 to run a government, I would be quite surprised if the possibility of doing the same here won't at least be discussed any time something needs an overhaul.
- jeroenhd 1y ago
  As with every large Microsoft migration, the problem isn't figuring out what's necessary to run a government. People in high places only know Microsoft and they don't want to risk having to learn something new. National security isn't as big of a deal as having to spend a few afternoons of training, after all.
  - jll29 1y ago
    It's easy enough to wrap some open source software in GUIs that closely resemble proprietary software (cf. LibreOffice as an example).
  - crote 1y ago
    People in high places have assistants to operate Word for them. If anything, the money Microsoft pours into lobbying is a bigger threat to gaining independence - the killing of the LiMux project[0] made that quite obvious. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux
    - noir_lord 1y ago
      I don't disagree but the world then and the world now are different places and people pushing for less of a dependency on american tech companies have a real chance to make some headway with The Orange One(TM) sitting on his throne over the pond and Microsoft seemingly determined to make themselves (more) unpopular with techies generally not entirely sure what they are doing with Windows 11 but after 3 decades of running a microsoft OS I don't have one in the house (in fairness windows hung in for gaming for the last 20 odd years, I've been linux for everything else since the millenium).
  - immibis 1y ago
    The bribes also make a difference.
- paganel 1y ago
  That won't ever happen at a large enough scale in Germany itself because of the Ramstein military base (and other such US military bases located on German soil). Playing "we're independent!" it's just a futile game as long as the military US presence in Germany is an ongoing thing.
  - lovich 1y ago
    Well if you were ever planning on evicting those bases you’d probably want to start by getting off of other infrastructure controlled by the owner of said bases, right?
    - woah 1y ago
      Even before getting off of MS Word, Germany would have to start by having a military capable of self-defense since leaving the country undefended would be very foolish. Ironically the imperial overlord USA which would hypothetically be getting evicted is the main party urging them to do this.
      - lurk2 1y ago
        > Ironically the imperial overlord USA which would hypothetically be getting evicted is the main party urging them to do this. I always found the framing on this funny. Europeans will talk about data sovereignty and decreasing reliance on the Americans and simultaneously cry foul when the Americans threaten to take their ball and go home.
        kergonath 1y ago
        > Europeans will talk about data sovereignty and decreasing reliance on the Americans and simultaneously cry foul when the Americans threaten to take their ball and go home. I am sure that you are aware that there are more than one person in Europe, and most of the countries there being democracies, those people are allowed to have different opinions. They even have the right to express them, go figure!
        1y ago
- wkat4242 1y ago
  The Dutch IRS just doubled down on M365 though saying they couldn't find any alternative. Strange detail though is that they were not on a cloud service until now. It's a bit of a weird time to decide to migrate to a US cloud service when most places are trying to get away from them.
  - seper8 1y ago
    Bullshit, Belastingdienst has been on Azure for a very long time. Source: I was inside one of their offices for a few Azure trainings.
    - wkat4242 1y ago
      Source: https://tweakers.net/nieuws/239890/ook-fiscus-kan-geen-eu-alternatief-voor-microsoft-vinden-en-zet-migratie-door.html https://tweakers.net/nieuws/239890/ook-fiscus-kan-geen-eu-al... "De Belastingdienst, met daarnaast ook de Douane en de Dienst Toeslagen, gebruikt momenteel eigen software voor kantoorautomatisering." This is M365 so it's not to do with Azure. It says they used their own office software before that was not cloud. That's what I referred to. I was not aware what they do with the more traditional cloud stuff but I'm not surprised they handed everything on a silver platter to the US though. The neolib party that has been in power for the last 20 years is super US centric and their previous prime minister is now acting as Trump's lapdog as general secretary of NATO.
  - Johnny555 1y ago
    I'm not surprised, I used to work for a cloud SaaS provider, everything we had ran on Linux, everyone in the office ran on Macs and Google Docs. Then as we grew the finance team, they found that Google Docs couldn't handle the spreadsheets they needed, and even Excel on Mac wasn't compatible. So, the Finance team started running VM's where they could run Windows and native Excel. Then as they grew (in size and power) they found themselves using the VM so much that they started moving from Mac to Windows laptops. Then as our windows footprint grew, more and more departments started requesting Windows. When I left around 25% of the ~1000 person company was on Windows (almost all on the corporate admin side, engineering remained overwhelmingly on Mac), and the Windows support team was twice as large as the team that managed the Mac infrastructure.
- renewiltord 1y ago
  I've been hearing about the German government moving to Linux from the days when I installed Red Hat Linux 7, I think https://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/09/news/it-managers-cite-security-and-competition-when-choosing-a-linux-system.html https://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/09/news/it-managers-cite-sec... We will probably have fusion power first.
  - deepsun 1y ago
    I think it's not a binary yes/no thing. No one will ever be full-on Microsoft, and no one will ever be full-off Microsoft. But even knowledge that your department must support non-Microsoft way is good, as it helps getting at least some parts vendor-neutral. Same as security -- there's no perfect security, but the grade matters.
  - deepsun 1y ago
    I think it's not a binary yes/no thing. No one will ever be full-on Microsoft, and no one will ever be full-off Microsoft. But even knowledge that your department must support non-Microsoft way is good, as it helps getting at least some parts vendor-neutral. Same as security -- there's no perfect security, but the grade matters a lot.
  - throwaway48476 1y ago
    'Some linux' is also useful for negotiating lower prices.
- pjmlp 1y ago
  I bet they will still be using Android and iOS devices, accessing those systems from Windows and macOS desktops and laptops, developing the bulk of the applications in Java (Oracle), C# (Microsoft), Go (Google),.... The solution isn't going for a few cloud products, or Libre Office, the solution has to be the whole stack like during cold war days when almost every nation had their own computing stack.
jeroenhd 1y ago
Don't underestimate the AIVD/MIVD. They have quite the history infiltrating Russian networks and operations and operate a rather useful satellite listening post. That said, the current American administration probably doesn't see Russia as a threat. America has always been spying on Europe, making it a bit harder by not willingly providing intel is a step in the right direction at least.
- netsharc 1y ago
  It'd be risky if Russia-friendly folks start telling Moscow the intelligence that the Dutch gathered, and some of the current American administration seem very Russia-friendly..
  - mdhb 1y ago
    That is very literally the accusation that is being made for the record.
- jimbohn 1y ago
  Somebody might even say that the administration sees russia as a useful tool to force europeans into paying a protection tol, not sure it's limited to this administration either
- hagbard_c 1y ago
  > That said, the current American administration probably doesn't see Russia as a threat. That's just pabulum for the masses which you're better off not repeating so as not to appear so easily fooled. Keep your friends close and your enemy closer [1] rings a bell I assume? [1] https://www.thehistoryofenglish.com/keep-your-friends-close-but-your-enemies-closer https://www.thehistoryofenglish.com/keep-your-friends-close-...
  - throwawayq3423 1y ago
    No it's a summary of repeated pro-Russia statements and actions. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.
terminalshort 1y ago
If Dutch intelligence is failing to encrypt their data to the point that AWS / the US government could see it then they deserve to lose every byte of it.
- vanviegen 1y ago
  Don't worry, these agencies seem to be appropriately paranoid. As an example: each intelligence worker gets three desktops PCs with various levels of security / airgapping.
  - ohdeardear 1y ago
    If they were truly paranoid, there would be a lot more they would do. I would call it naive, but then again, they are.
    - vanviegen 1y ago
      Why assume that's all they? This is just one example of reasonable paranoia I happen to know about. Most things they do are, unsurprisingly, secret.
      - ohdeardear 1y ago
        [dead]
  - throwaway48476 1y ago
    The most paranoid use typewriters.
    - throwawayq3423 1y ago
      and burn, bury, and store the remains in the basement.
mettamage 1y ago
> The USA probably doesn't worry much No, if they did, they'd know about certain attacks or planned attacks earlier [1]. So they should but they don't. [1] https://www.amazon.nl/Het-oorlog-maar-niemand-ziet/dp/946381146X https://www.amazon.nl/Het-oorlog-maar-niemand-ziet/dp/946381... - not an affiliated link, just the first one I could find.
woliveirajr 1y ago
Stuxnet comes to mind.

crote 1y ago

> our Dutch government and related services all run on AWS and Microsoft Office/Azure And this is already being criticized over and over again. With various German government organizations now actively moving away from Microsoft and demonstrating that you don't need Outlook & Office 365 to run a government, I would be quite surprised if the possibility of doing the same here won't at least be discussed any time something needs an overhaul.

jeroenhd 1y ago
As with every large Microsoft migration, the problem isn't figuring out what's necessary to run a government. People in high places only know Microsoft and they don't want to risk having to learn something new. National security isn't as big of a deal as having to spend a few afternoons of training, after all.
- jll29 1y ago
  It's easy enough to wrap some open source software in GUIs that closely resemble proprietary software (cf. LibreOffice as an example).
- crote 1y ago
  People in high places have assistants to operate Word for them. If anything, the money Microsoft pours into lobbying is a bigger threat to gaining independence - the killing of the LiMux project[0] made that quite obvious. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux
  - noir_lord 1y ago
    I don't disagree but the world then and the world now are different places and people pushing for less of a dependency on american tech companies have a real chance to make some headway with The Orange One(TM) sitting on his throne over the pond and Microsoft seemingly determined to make themselves (more) unpopular with techies generally not entirely sure what they are doing with Windows 11 but after 3 decades of running a microsoft OS I don't have one in the house (in fairness windows hung in for gaming for the last 20 odd years, I've been linux for everything else since the millenium).
- immibis 1y ago
  The bribes also make a difference.
paganel 1y ago
That won't ever happen at a large enough scale in Germany itself because of the Ramstein military base (and other such US military bases located on German soil). Playing "we're independent!" it's just a futile game as long as the military US presence in Germany is an ongoing thing.
- lovich 1y ago
  Well if you were ever planning on evicting those bases you’d probably want to start by getting off of other infrastructure controlled by the owner of said bases, right?
  - woah 1y ago
    Even before getting off of MS Word, Germany would have to start by having a military capable of self-defense since leaving the country undefended would be very foolish. Ironically the imperial overlord USA which would hypothetically be getting evicted is the main party urging them to do this.
    - lurk2 1y ago
      > Ironically the imperial overlord USA which would hypothetically be getting evicted is the main party urging them to do this. I always found the framing on this funny. Europeans will talk about data sovereignty and decreasing reliance on the Americans and simultaneously cry foul when the Americans threaten to take their ball and go home.
      - kergonath 1y ago
        > Europeans will talk about data sovereignty and decreasing reliance on the Americans and simultaneously cry foul when the Americans threaten to take their ball and go home. I am sure that you are aware that there are more than one person in Europe, and most of the countries there being democracies, those people are allowed to have different opinions. They even have the right to express them, go figure!
      - 1y ago
wkat4242 1y ago
The Dutch IRS just doubled down on M365 though saying they couldn't find any alternative. Strange detail though is that they were not on a cloud service until now. It's a bit of a weird time to decide to migrate to a US cloud service when most places are trying to get away from them.
- seper8 1y ago
  Bullshit, Belastingdienst has been on Azure for a very long time. Source: I was inside one of their offices for a few Azure trainings.
  - wkat4242 1y ago
    Source: https://tweakers.net/nieuws/239890/ook-fiscus-kan-geen-eu-alternatief-voor-microsoft-vinden-en-zet-migratie-door.html https://tweakers.net/nieuws/239890/ook-fiscus-kan-geen-eu-al... "De Belastingdienst, met daarnaast ook de Douane en de Dienst Toeslagen, gebruikt momenteel eigen software voor kantoorautomatisering." This is M365 so it's not to do with Azure. It says they used their own office software before that was not cloud. That's what I referred to. I was not aware what they do with the more traditional cloud stuff but I'm not surprised they handed everything on a silver platter to the US though. The neolib party that has been in power for the last 20 years is super US centric and their previous prime minister is now acting as Trump's lapdog as general secretary of NATO.
- Johnny555 1y ago
  I'm not surprised, I used to work for a cloud SaaS provider, everything we had ran on Linux, everyone in the office ran on Macs and Google Docs. Then as we grew the finance team, they found that Google Docs couldn't handle the spreadsheets they needed, and even Excel on Mac wasn't compatible. So, the Finance team started running VM's where they could run Windows and native Excel. Then as they grew (in size and power) they found themselves using the VM so much that they started moving from Mac to Windows laptops. Then as our windows footprint grew, more and more departments started requesting Windows. When I left around 25% of the ~1000 person company was on Windows (almost all on the corporate admin side, engineering remained overwhelmingly on Mac), and the Windows support team was twice as large as the team that managed the Mac infrastructure.
renewiltord 1y ago
I've been hearing about the German government moving to Linux from the days when I installed Red Hat Linux 7, I think https://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/09/news/it-managers-cite-security-and-competition-when-choosing-a-linux-system.html https://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/09/news/it-managers-cite-sec... We will probably have fusion power first.
- deepsun 1y ago
  I think it's not a binary yes/no thing. No one will ever be full-on Microsoft, and no one will ever be full-off Microsoft. But even knowledge that your department must support non-Microsoft way is good, as it helps getting at least some parts vendor-neutral. Same as security -- there's no perfect security, but the grade matters.
- deepsun 1y ago
  I think it's not a binary yes/no thing. No one will ever be full-on Microsoft, and no one will ever be full-off Microsoft. But even knowledge that your department must support non-Microsoft way is good, as it helps getting at least some parts vendor-neutral. Same as security -- there's no perfect security, but the grade matters a lot.
- throwaway48476 1y ago
  'Some linux' is also useful for negotiating lower prices.
pjmlp 1y ago
I bet they will still be using Android and iOS devices, accessing those systems from Windows and macOS desktops and laptops, developing the bulk of the applications in Java (Oracle), C# (Microsoft), Go (Google),.... The solution isn't going for a few cloud products, or Libre Office, the solution has to be the whole stack like during cold war days when almost every nation had their own computing stack.

jeroenhd 1y ago

Don't underestimate the AIVD/MIVD. They have quite the history infiltrating Russian networks and operations and operate a rather useful satellite listening post. That said, the current American administration probably doesn't see Russia as a threat. America has always been spying on Europe, making it a bit harder by not willingly providing intel is a step in the right direction at least.

netsharc 1y ago
It'd be risky if Russia-friendly folks start telling Moscow the intelligence that the Dutch gathered, and some of the current American administration seem very Russia-friendly..
- mdhb 1y ago
  That is very literally the accusation that is being made for the record.
jimbohn 1y ago
Somebody might even say that the administration sees russia as a useful tool to force europeans into paying a protection tol, not sure it's limited to this administration either
hagbard_c 1y ago
> That said, the current American administration probably doesn't see Russia as a threat. That's just pabulum for the masses which you're better off not repeating so as not to appear so easily fooled. Keep your friends close and your enemy closer [1] rings a bell I assume? [1] https://www.thehistoryofenglish.com/keep-your-friends-close-but-your-enemies-closer https://www.thehistoryofenglish.com/keep-your-friends-close-...
- throwawayq3423 1y ago
  No it's a summary of repeated pro-Russia statements and actions. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

terminalshort 1y ago

If Dutch intelligence is failing to encrypt their data to the point that AWS / the US government could see it then they deserve to lose every byte of it.

vanviegen 1y ago
Don't worry, these agencies seem to be appropriately paranoid. As an example: each intelligence worker gets three desktops PCs with various levels of security / airgapping.
- ohdeardear 1y ago
  If they were truly paranoid, there would be a lot more they would do. I would call it naive, but then again, they are.
  - vanviegen 1y ago
    Why assume that's all they? This is just one example of reasonable paranoia I happen to know about. Most things they do are, unsurprisingly, secret.
    - ohdeardear 1y ago
      [dead]
- throwaway48476 1y ago
  The most paranoid use typewriters.
  - throwawayq3423 1y ago
    and burn, bury, and store the remains in the basement.

mettamage 1y ago

> The USA probably doesn't worry much No, if they did, they'd know about certain attacks or planned attacks earlier [1]. So they should but they don't. [1] https://www.amazon.nl/Het-oorlog-maar-niemand-ziet/dp/946381146X https://www.amazon.nl/Het-oorlog-maar-niemand-ziet/dp/946381... - not an affiliated link, just the first one I could find.

woliveirajr 1y ago

Stuxnet comes to mind.