4 ms·

I just started a small project using gleam / lustre, and so far I’m loving it. Worth trying if you’re on the fence, especially if you’re into static types, no

by rapind 1y ago

I just started a small project using gleam / lustre, and so far I’m loving it. Worth trying if you’re on the fence, especially if you’re into static types, no nulls, functional, ML type languages. Plus beam of course.

akudha 1y ago
For someone who hasn’t worked with either, is it better to learn gleam/lustre better or elixir/phoenix?
- rapind 1y ago
  For me, gleam is a better fit for the reasons I mentioned, but elixir / phoenix is definitely more mature, so I guess it depends what you like and what you want out of it.
- the-grump 1y ago
  My path is a little different. I have used Haskell, and I'm looking to get into OTP. My original plan was either Elixir or vanilla Erlang depending on which one suits my sensibilities better. Reading about Gleam recently has me super, super excited. That's definitely going to be my path now. I don't know if Gleam is the best entry into the world of rich types that you find in a language like Haskell--I'm yet to actually build something with it. What I can tell you is that Haskell is a complete joy to use and it honestly ruins most other programming for me. So as a direction, I cannot recommend it enough, and I'm hoping, for my sake and yours, that Gleam offers a similarly stimulating sandbox. Just a warning that it will take time to get used to "higher-kinded" types. It's an exercise in head scratching and frustration at first. The reward part arrives when you start thinking in types yourself and you know which ones to reach for and when you find the libraries you want by entering a signature on Hoogle.
  - raphinou 1y ago
    Interesting! I have a F# background, and thought to have read that some constructs I learned to appreciate are not available in Gleam (the one I can think of right now is currying, but I thought there were others). Also, Gleam otp didn't seem to be a priority. What's your experience regarding these 2 points?
    - innocentoldguy 1y ago
      The issue isn't that OTP isn't a priority for Gleam, but rather that it doesn't work with the static typing Gleam is implementing. This is why they've had to reimplement their own OTP functionality in gleam_otp. Even then, gleam_otp has some limitations, like being unable to support all of OTP's messages, named processes, etc. gleam_otp is also considered experimental at this point.
      - 59nadir 1y ago
        Having Erlang-style OTP support (for the most part) is very doable, I've written my own OTP layer instead of the pretty shoddy stuff Gleam ships with. It's not really that challenging of a problem and you can get stuff like typed processes (`Pid(message_type)`, i.e. we can only send `message_type` messages to this process), etc. out of it very easily. This idea that static typing is such a massive issue for OTP style servers and messaging is a very persistent myth, to be honest; I've created thin layers on top of OTP for both `purerl` (PureScript compiled to Erlang) and Gleam that end up with both type-safe interfaces (we can only send the right messages to the processes) and are type-safe internally (we can only write the process in a type-safe way based on its state and message types).
        innocentoldguy 1y ago
        I wholeheartedly agree with you that gleam_otp is janky. Still, actor message passing is only part of the picture. Here are some issues that make static typing difficult in OTP: • OTP processes communicate via the actor model by sending messages of any type. Each actor is responsible for pattern-matching the incoming message and handling it (or not) based on its type. To implement static typing, you need to know at compile time what type of message an actor can receive, what type it will send back, and how to verify this at compile time. • OTP's GenServer behaviour uses callbacks that can return various types, depending on runtime conditions. Static typing would require that you predefine all return types for all callbacks, handle type-safe state management, and provide compile-time guarantees when handling these myriad types. • OTP supervisors manage child processes dynamically, which could be of any type. To implement static typing, you would need to know and define the types of all supervised processes, know how they are going to interact with each other, and implement type-safe restart strategies for each type. These and other design roadblocks may be why Gleam chose to implement primitives, like statically typed actors, instead of GenServer, GenStage, GenEvent, and other specialized OTP behaviours, full supervisor functionality, DynamicSupervisor, and OTP's Registry, Agent, Task, etc. OTP and BEAM are Erlang and Elixir's killer features, and have been battle-tested in some of the most demanding environments for decades. I can't see the logic in ditching them or cobbling together a lesser, unproven version of them to gain something as mundane as static typing. EDIT: I completely missed the word "actor" as the second word in my second sentence, so I added it.
- Munksgaard 1y ago
  As someone who comes from Haskell/ML-like languages, I decided to opt for Elixir and Phoenix for my latest project, simply because of the maturity of the web framework and LiveView. If I weren't building a web app, I'd probably have gone with Gleam instead. Edit: I do miss static typing, but it's worth it to not have to reinvent the web framework wheels myself.
- innocentoldguy 1y ago
  In my opinion, Elixir and Phoenix will give you a better experience with BEAM and OTP, excellent tooling, a more mature ecosystem, and one of the best web frameworks ever to exist. I think Gleam is cool, but I can't see trading these benefits in for static typing. To be fair, I can't think of anything I care less about than static typing, so please keep that in mind when entertaining my opinion.
  - raphinou 1y ago
    I also preferred dynamic typing, until my complex rails app grew to the point I didn't dare to do any refactoring. But I didn't switch opinion until I discovered ML type systems, which really allow for fearless refactoring. At occasion there's some battling to satisfy the typesystem, but even with that I'm more productive once the app grows in complexity. I thought I'd share my experience, not trying to convince anyone ; - )
- MDTHLN 1y ago
  I love Gleam, but I would start with Elixir if you're interested in learning about how powerful the BEAM & OTP are. There's not much documentation/resources around OTP in Gleam. When I was playing around with it I often found myself referring to the Elixir docs and then 'translating' that knowledge to Gleam's OTP implementation. Gleam is still very new so this is totally understandable, and both are great languages so you'll likely have a lot of fun learning either of them.
  - 59nadir 1y ago
    Erlang is a much better language to learn if you're interested in learning about the BEAM and OTP, and the book "Programming Erlang"[0] is an excellent resource for learning it. 0 - https://pragprog.com/titles/jaerlang2/programming-erlang-2nd-edition/ https://pragprog.com/titles/jaerlang2/programming-erlang-2nd...
    - _acco 1y ago
      I disagree. I started with Elixir and its OTP resources are really good. Books like Elixir in Action do a great job. I read Programming Erlang later, but it was just for fun, and I knew most things already at that point.
      - 59nadir 1y ago
        I've used Elixir since 2015 and in fact learned it first. I still think "Programming Erlang" is a much better book than any other for actually learning Erlang and BEAM/OTP principles. Erlang as a language is simpler, leaving more time and energy for learning the actual important bits about OTP.
        Miner49er 1y ago
        Also Elixir abstracts even more of the OTP and does some automagical stuff with it. Erlang is more explicit, which is better for learning, IMO.
- victorbjorklund 1y ago
  Gleam is cool but honestly for now the ecosystem is so much bigger in Elixir. And yes, you can use some libraries across and things like that, but then again you could also bring in the parts that you need from Gleam into Elixir and instead of vice versa. If you just want to learn a really cool language, I think Gleam is pretty cool. But if you want to learn a language that is more productive but still kind of cool, I would start really like here and then dip my toes into Gleam.
sureglymop 1y ago
Same and I like it too so far! Some thoughts so far: Installing gleam installed about 50 packages on my system (possibly all erlang/elixir related). But what if I just wanted to transpile to js? Perhaps this is a packaging issue on my system though. What I really wish is that Lua would be considered as another transpilation target. I think gleam could shine for DSLs in other programs but embedding Lua is 3x easier than embedding a js runtime imo. In general, I find the nicest thing so far the community. And I want to say that the quality of libraries and resources in the gleam community seems exceptionally high. It reminds me of the rust community insofar as that for most hard problems someone smarter than me has already worked on it and published a good solution (e.g. lustre, squirrel). Then I would say you can also expect a lot of creativity and experimentation, the things that may fly under the radar in larger language ecosystems stand out here due to the growing and welcoming community.
- hayleighdotdev 1y ago
  > Perhaps this is a packaging issue on my system though. Gleam is only officially distributed via the releases on GitHub [1] so if you pick up Gleam from a package manager that's always maintained by someone else. I think most of those community distributions do include Erlang and bits which is probably what pulled in all those extra packages! [1]: https://github.com/gleam-lang/gleam/releases/tag/v1.13.0 https://github.com/gleam-lang/gleam/releases/tag/v1.13.0
truculent 1y ago
I like all of the above but have no understanding of the BEAM or OTP. Can you recommend a good place to start learning about that?
- Joel_Mckay 1y ago
  In general, I found starting with a Erlang/Elixir framework tutorial helps. Phoenix includes a generic wrapper on top of PostgreSQL (Ecto provides data mapping and language integrated query), and hit a surprising number of users per host with trivial code (common game engine back-end.) https://www.phoenixframework.org/ https://www.phoenixframework.org/ https://www.amazon.com/Programming-Phoenix-Productive-Reliable-Fast/dp/1680501453 https://www.amazon.com/Programming-Phoenix-Productive-Reliab... If you don't run away from a framework intro, then dive into the details of the OTP: https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Elixir-Systems-OTP-Self-healing/dp/1680506617 https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Elixir-Systems-OTP-Self-hea... https://www.amazon.com/Elixir-Action-Third-Sa%C5%A1a-Juric/dp/1633438511 https://www.amazon.com/Elixir-Action-Third-Sa%C5%A1a-Juric/d... The only foot-gun I would initially avoid, is a fussy fault-tolerant multi-host cluster deployment. Check out RabbitMQ package maintainers, as those guys certainly offer a fantastic resource for students ( https://www.rabbitmq.com/docs/which-erlang https://www.rabbitmq.com/docs/which-erlang .) Best of luck =3

by rapind 1y ago

akudha 1y ago

For someone who hasn’t worked with either, is it better to learn gleam/lustre better or elixir/phoenix?

rapind 1y ago
For me, gleam is a better fit for the reasons I mentioned, but elixir / phoenix is definitely more mature, so I guess it depends what you like and what you want out of it.
the-grump 1y ago
My path is a little different. I have used Haskell, and I'm looking to get into OTP. My original plan was either Elixir or vanilla Erlang depending on which one suits my sensibilities better. Reading about Gleam recently has me super, super excited. That's definitely going to be my path now. I don't know if Gleam is the best entry into the world of rich types that you find in a language like Haskell--I'm yet to actually build something with it. What I can tell you is that Haskell is a complete joy to use and it honestly ruins most other programming for me. So as a direction, I cannot recommend it enough, and I'm hoping, for my sake and yours, that Gleam offers a similarly stimulating sandbox. Just a warning that it will take time to get used to "higher-kinded" types. It's an exercise in head scratching and frustration at first. The reward part arrives when you start thinking in types yourself and you know which ones to reach for and when you find the libraries you want by entering a signature on Hoogle.
- raphinou 1y ago
  Interesting! I have a F# background, and thought to have read that some constructs I learned to appreciate are not available in Gleam (the one I can think of right now is currying, but I thought there were others). Also, Gleam otp didn't seem to be a priority. What's your experience regarding these 2 points?
  - innocentoldguy 1y ago
    The issue isn't that OTP isn't a priority for Gleam, but rather that it doesn't work with the static typing Gleam is implementing. This is why they've had to reimplement their own OTP functionality in gleam_otp. Even then, gleam_otp has some limitations, like being unable to support all of OTP's messages, named processes, etc. gleam_otp is also considered experimental at this point.
    - 59nadir 1y ago
      Having Erlang-style OTP support (for the most part) is very doable, I've written my own OTP layer instead of the pretty shoddy stuff Gleam ships with. It's not really that challenging of a problem and you can get stuff like typed processes (`Pid(message_type)`, i.e. we can only send `message_type` messages to this process), etc. out of it very easily. This idea that static typing is such a massive issue for OTP style servers and messaging is a very persistent myth, to be honest; I've created thin layers on top of OTP for both `purerl` (PureScript compiled to Erlang) and Gleam that end up with both type-safe interfaces (we can only send the right messages to the processes) and are type-safe internally (we can only write the process in a type-safe way based on its state and message types).
      - innocentoldguy 1y ago
        I wholeheartedly agree with you that gleam_otp is janky. Still, actor message passing is only part of the picture. Here are some issues that make static typing difficult in OTP: • OTP processes communicate via the actor model by sending messages of any type. Each actor is responsible for pattern-matching the incoming message and handling it (or not) based on its type. To implement static typing, you need to know at compile time what type of message an actor can receive, what type it will send back, and how to verify this at compile time. • OTP's GenServer behaviour uses callbacks that can return various types, depending on runtime conditions. Static typing would require that you predefine all return types for all callbacks, handle type-safe state management, and provide compile-time guarantees when handling these myriad types. • OTP supervisors manage child processes dynamically, which could be of any type. To implement static typing, you would need to know and define the types of all supervised processes, know how they are going to interact with each other, and implement type-safe restart strategies for each type. These and other design roadblocks may be why Gleam chose to implement primitives, like statically typed actors, instead of GenServer, GenStage, GenEvent, and other specialized OTP behaviours, full supervisor functionality, DynamicSupervisor, and OTP's Registry, Agent, Task, etc. OTP and BEAM are Erlang and Elixir's killer features, and have been battle-tested in some of the most demanding environments for decades. I can't see the logic in ditching them or cobbling together a lesser, unproven version of them to gain something as mundane as static typing. EDIT: I completely missed the word "actor" as the second word in my second sentence, so I added it.
Munksgaard 1y ago
As someone who comes from Haskell/ML-like languages, I decided to opt for Elixir and Phoenix for my latest project, simply because of the maturity of the web framework and LiveView. If I weren't building a web app, I'd probably have gone with Gleam instead. Edit: I do miss static typing, but it's worth it to not have to reinvent the web framework wheels myself.
innocentoldguy 1y ago
In my opinion, Elixir and Phoenix will give you a better experience with BEAM and OTP, excellent tooling, a more mature ecosystem, and one of the best web frameworks ever to exist. I think Gleam is cool, but I can't see trading these benefits in for static typing. To be fair, I can't think of anything I care less about than static typing, so please keep that in mind when entertaining my opinion.
- raphinou 1y ago
  I also preferred dynamic typing, until my complex rails app grew to the point I didn't dare to do any refactoring. But I didn't switch opinion until I discovered ML type systems, which really allow for fearless refactoring. At occasion there's some battling to satisfy the typesystem, but even with that I'm more productive once the app grows in complexity. I thought I'd share my experience, not trying to convince anyone ; - )
MDTHLN 1y ago
I love Gleam, but I would start with Elixir if you're interested in learning about how powerful the BEAM & OTP are. There's not much documentation/resources around OTP in Gleam. When I was playing around with it I often found myself referring to the Elixir docs and then 'translating' that knowledge to Gleam's OTP implementation. Gleam is still very new so this is totally understandable, and both are great languages so you'll likely have a lot of fun learning either of them.
- 59nadir 1y ago
  Erlang is a much better language to learn if you're interested in learning about the BEAM and OTP, and the book "Programming Erlang"[0] is an excellent resource for learning it. 0 - https://pragprog.com/titles/jaerlang2/programming-erlang-2nd-edition/ https://pragprog.com/titles/jaerlang2/programming-erlang-2nd...
  - _acco 1y ago
    I disagree. I started with Elixir and its OTP resources are really good. Books like Elixir in Action do a great job. I read Programming Erlang later, but it was just for fun, and I knew most things already at that point.
    - 59nadir 1y ago
      I've used Elixir since 2015 and in fact learned it first. I still think "Programming Erlang" is a much better book than any other for actually learning Erlang and BEAM/OTP principles. Erlang as a language is simpler, leaving more time and energy for learning the actual important bits about OTP.
      - Miner49er 1y ago
        Also Elixir abstracts even more of the OTP and does some automagical stuff with it. Erlang is more explicit, which is better for learning, IMO.
victorbjorklund 1y ago
Gleam is cool but honestly for now the ecosystem is so much bigger in Elixir. And yes, you can use some libraries across and things like that, but then again you could also bring in the parts that you need from Gleam into Elixir and instead of vice versa. If you just want to learn a really cool language, I think Gleam is pretty cool. But if you want to learn a language that is more productive but still kind of cool, I would start really like here and then dip my toes into Gleam.

sureglymop 1y ago

Same and I like it too so far! Some thoughts so far: Installing gleam installed about 50 packages on my system (possibly all erlang/elixir related). But what if I just wanted to transpile to js? Perhaps this is a packaging issue on my system though. What I really wish is that Lua would be considered as another transpilation target. I think gleam could shine for DSLs in other programs but embedding Lua is 3x easier than embedding a js runtime imo. In general, I find the nicest thing so far the community. And I want to say that the quality of libraries and resources in the gleam community seems exceptionally high. It reminds me of the rust community insofar as that for most hard problems someone smarter than me has already worked on it and published a good solution (e.g. lustre, squirrel). Then I would say you can also expect a lot of creativity and experimentation, the things that may fly under the radar in larger language ecosystems stand out here due to the growing and welcoming community.

hayleighdotdev 1y ago
> Perhaps this is a packaging issue on my system though. Gleam is only officially distributed via the releases on GitHub [1] so if you pick up Gleam from a package manager that's always maintained by someone else. I think most of those community distributions do include Erlang and bits which is probably what pulled in all those extra packages! [1]: https://github.com/gleam-lang/gleam/releases/tag/v1.13.0 https://github.com/gleam-lang/gleam/releases/tag/v1.13.0

truculent 1y ago

I like all of the above but have no understanding of the BEAM or OTP. Can you recommend a good place to start learning about that?

Joel_Mckay 1y ago
In general, I found starting with a Erlang/Elixir framework tutorial helps. Phoenix includes a generic wrapper on top of PostgreSQL (Ecto provides data mapping and language integrated query), and hit a surprising number of users per host with trivial code (common game engine back-end.) https://www.phoenixframework.org/ https://www.phoenixframework.org/ https://www.amazon.com/Programming-Phoenix-Productive-Reliable-Fast/dp/1680501453 https://www.amazon.com/Programming-Phoenix-Productive-Reliab... If you don't run away from a framework intro, then dive into the details of the OTP: https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Elixir-Systems-OTP-Self-healing/dp/1680506617 https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Elixir-Systems-OTP-Self-hea... https://www.amazon.com/Elixir-Action-Third-Sa%C5%A1a-Juric/dp/1633438511 https://www.amazon.com/Elixir-Action-Third-Sa%C5%A1a-Juric/d... The only foot-gun I would initially avoid, is a fussy fault-tolerant multi-host cluster deployment. Check out RabbitMQ package maintainers, as those guys certainly offer a fantastic resource for students ( https://www.rabbitmq.com/docs/which-erlang https://www.rabbitmq.com/docs/which-erlang .) Best of luck =3