5 ms·

> Now a few years later, you can buy a BYD for 26k, that does 450km (ext version) on paper. That same BYD is WAY more fancy, tech gadgets etc... Right, because

by tw04 1y ago

> Now a few years later, you can buy a BYD for 26k, that does 450km (ext version) on paper. That same BYD is WAY more fancy, tech gadgets etc... Right, because the other $26k is being subsidized by the party. And much like the US found out with rare earths: once China has the market cornered, the price will rise and/or they’ll use access to their goods as a tool of war. They’re playing the long game and western nations seem unable or unwilling to do the same. https://insideevs.com/news/763687/china-zero-mile-used-evs/ https://insideevs.com/news/763687/china-zero-mile-used-evs/

adrianN 1y ago
That might be true, but it doesn’t matter for the buying decision of the individual consumer.
- BobbyTables2 1y ago
  It will matter a lot if (replacement) battery prices skyrocket…
  - dvfjsdhgfv 1y ago
    Most individual buyers are unable or not willing to take global perspectives into account, otherwise Japanese cars would never make impact on the American market for example. You need people in power to make informed decisions, and even then you risk the only result will be people getting very angry that politician mess up with the market.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
    I don't really see a prospect of that, since the batteries are steadily getting both better and cheaper. What makes you think so?
    - adrianN 1y ago
      For E-Bikes at least communication between the engine and the battery pack is encrypted and you can't replace either without the manufacturer's consent.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
        This seems more like an added feature of some E-Bikes, rather then an essential design element of E-Bikes in general. And even if true, it doesn't follow for me that "therefor, batteries must become more expensive in general, despite the current trend". I think you're implying lock-in and extractive profits, rather than rising cost of manufacture. It's an argument for diversity of key industries, and that batteries might become such. I agree with that. But as an argument that (in parent the comment's words) "so, battery prices will skyrocket", it seems a bit thin to me. battery prices are expected to "Plummet" not "Skyrocket": https://cleantechnica.com/2025/10/15/plummeting-battery-prices-will-push-bevs-below-parity-soon/ https://cleantechnica.com/2025/10/15/plummeting-battery-pric...
        adrianN 1y ago
        I don’t think the argument is „batteries are getting more expensive“, the argument is that manufacturers will start maximizing profits once they have sufficiently handicapped the competition.
        SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
        They might, at which point the argument for diversity of key industries kicks in. Batteries are key to the near future of hand-held gadgets, e-bikes, passenger cars, many other vehicles and to power grids, so the tolerance for extractive monopolies might be limited. Yes, we should not let one manufacturer or one country be the sole supplier. The scale is large and will only grow, and if the profit margins are large, then there is opportunity. The past and future evidence is firmly on the side of batteries getting steadily cheaper. I'm not saying that the opposite is impossible. Just that to make that claim, there is therefor a substantial burden of proof to be met, and I don't see it at all in this thread.
- computerthings 1y ago
  [dead]
saxenaabhi 1y ago
There are/were plenty of subsidies on EV cars in US/EU. Also chinese companies innovate better and have more efficient supply chains that western ones. The push to ban chinese automakers is stupid because it punishes customers at the benefit of automakers. Crony Capitalism at its worse.
- edm0nd 1y ago
  >Also chinese companies innovate better and have more efficient supply chains that western ones. Yeah because they just steal and copy everything from Western companies and others worldwide. Why spend hundreds of millions and 10 years doing R&D when you can just hack in and steal it? It's the Chinese way. Chinese hackers took trillions in intellectual property from about 30 multinational companies - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chinese-hackers-took-trillions-in-intellectual-property-from-about-30-multinational-companies/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chinese-hackers-took-trillions-... The annual cost to the U.S. economy of counterfeit goods, pirated software, and theft of trade secrets is between $225 billion and $600 billion. China is the world’s principal infringer of intellectual property, and it uses its laws and regulations to put foreign companies at a disadvantage and its own companies at an advantage. - https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/china-exec-summary-risk-to-corporate-america-2019.pdf https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/china-exec-summary-risk-... - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_property_infringement_by_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_pr... Salt Typhoon is an advanced persistent threat actor believed to be operated by China's Ministry of State Security (MSS) which has conducted high-profile cyber espionage campaigns, particularly against the United States. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Typhoon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Typhoon - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aurora https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aurora Industrial espionage: How China sneaks out America's technology secrets - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-64206950 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-64206950 etc etc etc
  - saxenaabhi 1y ago
    Yes GM is lagging behind BYD not because it's leadership and managerial culture but because "chinese copy". And the solution is to punish consumers and enrich GM's totally failed leadership and irrational shareholders by throttling competition chinese. Here in europe cars have become so expensive compared to just 10y ago. Some of it is because of stupid green policies, but most if because EU carmakers have been successful in reducing the competitive pressure from China by the use of tariffs on chinese firms.
benjiro 1y ago
Your also forgetting that Chinese cars have a large import tariff. Current rates are BYD (17%), Geely (18.8%), and SAIC (35.3%). > And much like the US found out with rare earths: Rare earths is not rare at all. China has a cornered the market on processing those minerals for cheap. The problem is that we in the West have no appetite to actually support companies to process those "rare" earths. And the US is really the last country to even talk about batteries, when the arrested 300+ Koreans that worked to get a US battery plant going. > They’re playing the long game and western nations seem unable or unwilling to do the same. Its not just a government issue, its a companies issue. You think that car companies in Europe do not get subsidies? Have you ever looked at how much subsidies they get opening new plants or renovating plants? Reality is that a lot of car companies enjoyed their little monopolie positions in Europe. Sure, we got a lot of brands, but in reality its a illusion of competition, as most brands are owned by a few big companies. China had a different situation, where yes, there was subsidies from the government (and a lot of misuse of those subsidies), but you had 100's of car manufactures entering the markets. I mean, we talk about BYD often but BYD was not even a car manufacturer until 2005 ... The result is a strong competition between car makers, what resulted in a lot of technological development and a push to be better then the next guy(s). Constant copy and innovation work. Work to reduces prices to be able to compete better, as remember, their competitor also go those subsidies. We have this issue with our car industry only to thank to our own car industry. Frankly, i am happy to see the Chinese enter the EU market, for the simply fact that it pushed the EU car makers to actually start innovating again and offering more to the clients. The issue with competition to dead was a issue in new upcoming industries, like solar. Because their both sides started with the same level vs +subsidies. The car industry is a totally different beast with deep pockets and manufacturing capabilities. So lets not act like "poor EU car makers".

by tw04 1y ago

adrianN 1y ago

That might be true, but it doesn’t matter for the buying decision of the individual consumer.

BobbyTables2 1y ago
It will matter a lot if (replacement) battery prices skyrocket…
- dvfjsdhgfv 1y ago
  Most individual buyers are unable or not willing to take global perspectives into account, otherwise Japanese cars would never make impact on the American market for example. You need people in power to make informed decisions, and even then you risk the only result will be people getting very angry that politician mess up with the market.
- SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
  I don't really see a prospect of that, since the batteries are steadily getting both better and cheaper. What makes you think so?
  - adrianN 1y ago
    For E-Bikes at least communication between the engine and the battery pack is encrypted and you can't replace either without the manufacturer's consent.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
      This seems more like an added feature of some E-Bikes, rather then an essential design element of E-Bikes in general. And even if true, it doesn't follow for me that "therefor, batteries must become more expensive in general, despite the current trend". I think you're implying lock-in and extractive profits, rather than rising cost of manufacture. It's an argument for diversity of key industries, and that batteries might become such. I agree with that. But as an argument that (in parent the comment's words) "so, battery prices will skyrocket", it seems a bit thin to me. battery prices are expected to "Plummet" not "Skyrocket": https://cleantechnica.com/2025/10/15/plummeting-battery-prices-will-push-bevs-below-parity-soon/ https://cleantechnica.com/2025/10/15/plummeting-battery-pric...
      - adrianN 1y ago
        I don’t think the argument is „batteries are getting more expensive“, the argument is that manufacturers will start maximizing profits once they have sufficiently handicapped the competition.
        SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
        They might, at which point the argument for diversity of key industries kicks in. Batteries are key to the near future of hand-held gadgets, e-bikes, passenger cars, many other vehicles and to power grids, so the tolerance for extractive monopolies might be limited. Yes, we should not let one manufacturer or one country be the sole supplier. The scale is large and will only grow, and if the profit margins are large, then there is opportunity. The past and future evidence is firmly on the side of batteries getting steadily cheaper. I'm not saying that the opposite is impossible. Just that to make that claim, there is therefor a substantial burden of proof to be met, and I don't see it at all in this thread.
computerthings 1y ago
[dead]

saxenaabhi 1y ago

There are/were plenty of subsidies on EV cars in US/EU. Also chinese companies innovate better and have more efficient supply chains that western ones. The push to ban chinese automakers is stupid because it punishes customers at the benefit of automakers. Crony Capitalism at its worse.

edm0nd 1y ago
>Also chinese companies innovate better and have more efficient supply chains that western ones. Yeah because they just steal and copy everything from Western companies and others worldwide. Why spend hundreds of millions and 10 years doing R&D when you can just hack in and steal it? It's the Chinese way. Chinese hackers took trillions in intellectual property from about 30 multinational companies - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chinese-hackers-took-trillions-in-intellectual-property-from-about-30-multinational-companies/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chinese-hackers-took-trillions-... The annual cost to the U.S. economy of counterfeit goods, pirated software, and theft of trade secrets is between $225 billion and $600 billion. China is the world’s principal infringer of intellectual property, and it uses its laws and regulations to put foreign companies at a disadvantage and its own companies at an advantage. - https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/china-exec-summary-risk-to-corporate-america-2019.pdf https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/china-exec-summary-risk-... - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_property_infringement_by_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_pr... Salt Typhoon is an advanced persistent threat actor believed to be operated by China's Ministry of State Security (MSS) which has conducted high-profile cyber espionage campaigns, particularly against the United States. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Typhoon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Typhoon - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aurora https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aurora Industrial espionage: How China sneaks out America's technology secrets - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-64206950 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-64206950 etc etc etc
- saxenaabhi 1y ago
  Yes GM is lagging behind BYD not because it's leadership and managerial culture but because "chinese copy". And the solution is to punish consumers and enrich GM's totally failed leadership and irrational shareholders by throttling competition chinese. Here in europe cars have become so expensive compared to just 10y ago. Some of it is because of stupid green policies, but most if because EU carmakers have been successful in reducing the competitive pressure from China by the use of tariffs on chinese firms.

benjiro 1y ago

Your also forgetting that Chinese cars have a large import tariff. Current rates are BYD (17%), Geely (18.8%), and SAIC (35.3%). > And much like the US found out with rare earths: Rare earths is not rare at all. China has a cornered the market on processing those minerals for cheap. The problem is that we in the West have no appetite to actually support companies to process those "rare" earths. And the US is really the last country to even talk about batteries, when the arrested 300+ Koreans that worked to get a US battery plant going. > They’re playing the long game and western nations seem unable or unwilling to do the same. Its not just a government issue, its a companies issue. You think that car companies in Europe do not get subsidies? Have you ever looked at how much subsidies they get opening new plants or renovating plants? Reality is that a lot of car companies enjoyed their little monopolie positions in Europe. Sure, we got a lot of brands, but in reality its a illusion of competition, as most brands are owned by a few big companies. China had a different situation, where yes, there was subsidies from the government (and a lot of misuse of those subsidies), but you had 100's of car manufactures entering the markets. I mean, we talk about BYD often but BYD was not even a car manufacturer until 2005 ... The result is a strong competition between car makers, what resulted in a lot of technological development and a push to be better then the next guy(s). Constant copy and innovation work. Work to reduces prices to be able to compete better, as remember, their competitor also go those subsidies. We have this issue with our car industry only to thank to our own car industry. Frankly, i am happy to see the Chinese enter the EU market, for the simply fact that it pushed the EU car makers to actually start innovating again and offering more to the clients. The issue with competition to dead was a issue in new upcoming industries, like solar. Because their both sides started with the same level vs +subsidies. The car industry is a totally different beast with deep pockets and manufacturing capabilities. So lets not act like "poor EU car makers".