5 ms·

Not the person you asked the question but i can answer this partially. I see from the EV my parents bought, they got for 22k euro, a car that does 240km on pap

Not the person you asked the question but i can answer this partially. I see from the EV my parents bought, they got for 22k euro, a car that does 240km on paper. Now a few years later, you can buy a BYD for 26k, that does 450km (ext version) on paper. That same BYD is WAY more fancy, tech gadgets etc... But that is comparing a lower market segment where this effect is stronger. On the higher end market, where the Tesla's used to dominate, we see less movement as those cars already came with tons of tech, and large batteries. Thing is, i am still not buying a EV despite them being better. The same arguments we had with EV disadvantages is still present today. I rather buy a second hand gasoline engine simply because of the convenience of the default 600 a 700km range on most vehicles, the 5 minute tank job, the lack of charging in the city, the prices despite the heavier depreciation in the second hand market are still worse. Ironically the gasoline car we bought 10 years ago, for 7.5k, still sells today for 8k in todays market (added 50k kms on the car). So even if we take a cut, the actual gasoline engine depreciation is strangely less strong. I track several gasoline cars where i had a interest in from years ago, same phenomenon. For some reason you expect gasoline cars to drop more in pricing because now in EU 17% of new cars sales are EVs and 36% are hybrid. So more gasoline cars on second hand market? No ... because people are also buying less cars because of the economy, more work from home etc. Resulting in actually less second hand cars as people hold on to their vehicles longer, waiting out this transition periode.

tw04 1y ago
> Now a few years later, you can buy a BYD for 26k, that does 450km (ext version) on paper. That same BYD is WAY more fancy, tech gadgets etc... Right, because the other $26k is being subsidized by the party. And much like the US found out with rare earths: once China has the market cornered, the price will rise and/or they’ll use access to their goods as a tool of war. They’re playing the long game and western nations seem unable or unwilling to do the same. https://insideevs.com/news/763687/china-zero-mile-used-evs/ https://insideevs.com/news/763687/china-zero-mile-used-evs/
- adrianN 1y ago
  That might be true, but it doesn’t matter for the buying decision of the individual consumer.
  - BobbyTables2 1y ago
    It will matter a lot if (replacement) battery prices skyrocket…
    - dvfjsdhgfv 1y ago
      Most individual buyers are unable or not willing to take global perspectives into account, otherwise Japanese cars would never make impact on the American market for example. You need people in power to make informed decisions, and even then you risk the only result will be people getting very angry that politician mess up with the market.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
      I don't really see a prospect of that, since the batteries are steadily getting both better and cheaper. What makes you think so?
      - adrianN 1y ago
        For E-Bikes at least communication between the engine and the battery pack is encrypted and you can't replace either without the manufacturer's consent.
        SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
        This seems more like an added feature of some E-Bikes, rather then an essential design element of E-Bikes in general. And even if true, it doesn't follow for me that "therefor, batteries must become more expensive in general, despite the current trend". I think you're implying lock-in and extractive profits, rather than rising cost of manufacture. It's an argument for diversity of key industries, and that batteries might become such. I agree with that. But as an argument that (in parent the comment's words) "so, battery prices will skyrocket", it seems a bit thin to me. battery prices are expected to "Plummet" not "Skyrocket": https://cleantechnica.com/2025/10/15/plummeting-battery-prices-will-push-bevs-below-parity-soon/ https://cleantechnica.com/2025/10/15/plummeting-battery-pric...
- saxenaabhi 1y ago
  There are/were plenty of subsidies on EV cars in US/EU. Also chinese companies innovate better and have more efficient supply chains that western ones. The push to ban chinese automakers is stupid because it punishes customers at the benefit of automakers. Crony Capitalism at its worse.
  - edm0nd 1y ago
    >Also chinese companies innovate better and have more efficient supply chains that western ones. Yeah because they just steal and copy everything from Western companies and others worldwide. Why spend hundreds of millions and 10 years doing R&D when you can just hack in and steal it? It's the Chinese way. Chinese hackers took trillions in intellectual property from about 30 multinational companies - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chinese-hackers-took-trillions-in-intellectual-property-from-about-30-multinational-companies/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chinese-hackers-took-trillions-... The annual cost to the U.S. economy of counterfeit goods, pirated software, and theft of trade secrets is between $225 billion and $600 billion. China is the world’s principal infringer of intellectual property, and it uses its laws and regulations to put foreign companies at a disadvantage and its own companies at an advantage. - https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/china-exec-summary-risk-to-corporate-america-2019.pdf https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/china-exec-summary-risk-... - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_property_infringement_by_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_pr... Salt Typhoon is an advanced persistent threat actor believed to be operated by China's Ministry of State Security (MSS) which has conducted high-profile cyber espionage campaigns, particularly against the United States. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Typhoon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Typhoon - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aurora https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aurora Industrial espionage: How China sneaks out America's technology secrets - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-64206950 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-64206950 etc etc etc
    - saxenaabhi 1y ago
      Yes GM is lagging behind BYD not because it's leadership and managerial culture but because "chinese copy". And the solution is to punish consumers and enrich GM's totally failed leadership and irrational shareholders by throttling competition chinese. Here in europe cars have become so expensive compared to just 10y ago. Some of it is because of stupid green policies, but most if because EU carmakers have been successful in reducing the competitive pressure from China by the use of tariffs on chinese firms.
- benjiro 1y ago
  Your also forgetting that Chinese cars have a large import tariff. Current rates are BYD (17%), Geely (18.8%), and SAIC (35.3%). > And much like the US found out with rare earths: Rare earths is not rare at all. China has a cornered the market on processing those minerals for cheap. The problem is that we in the West have no appetite to actually support companies to process those "rare" earths. And the US is really the last country to even talk about batteries, when the arrested 300+ Koreans that worked to get a US battery plant going. > They’re playing the long game and western nations seem unable or unwilling to do the same. Its not just a government issue, its a companies issue. You think that car companies in Europe do not get subsidies? Have you ever looked at how much subsidies they get opening new plants or renovating plants? Reality is that a lot of car companies enjoyed their little monopolie positions in Europe. Sure, we got a lot of brands, but in reality its a illusion of competition, as most brands are owned by a few big companies. China had a different situation, where yes, there was subsidies from the government (and a lot of misuse of those subsidies), but you had 100's of car manufactures entering the markets. I mean, we talk about BYD often but BYD was not even a car manufacturer until 2005 ... The result is a strong competition between car makers, what resulted in a lot of technological development and a push to be better then the next guy(s). Constant copy and innovation work. Work to reduces prices to be able to compete better, as remember, their competitor also go those subsidies. We have this issue with our car industry only to thank to our own car industry. Frankly, i am happy to see the Chinese enter the EU market, for the simply fact that it pushed the EU car makers to actually start innovating again and offering more to the clients. The issue with competition to dead was a issue in new upcoming industries, like solar. Because their both sides started with the same level vs +subsidies. The car industry is a totally different beast with deep pockets and manufacturing capabilities. So lets not act like "poor EU car makers".
aftbit 1y ago
>the lack of charging in the city This would be the killer for me. I have a private garage with plugs, and even at 120V, I can out-charge my typical driving needs. I work from home and only occasionally take trips beyond a few miles, with a few longer road trips a year. My IONIQ 5 (USA) does 300 miles (480 km) on paper, but in practice, I've seen a fair bit less. That said, it does charge up 20->80% in under 20 minutes at a fast charger.
- wafflemaker 1y ago
  Disclaimer: never owned a car, no driving licence. Also talking about Norway with generally good charger infrastructure. Was on a road trip last summer, around Norway, in VW id.Buzz. Charging time of 5min vs 20min doesn't matter. When you're on that long trip, you need time to eat, go to bathroom, walk a little so your legs/back doesn't hurt. In the whole trip there was maybe one forced trip to a shop, because we had time to burn (the only charger was too slow and needed a whole hour to charge). OTOH have a friend with first gen Leaf and his max charging speed is pretty slow. He additionally can't charge at home and this makes the slow charging time a little off a nuisance.
  - yakshaving_jgt 1y ago
    > Charging time of 5min vs 20min doesn't matter. I think that’s only true if chargers are sitting idle. Otherwise you’re waiting longer in a queue before you can begin charging, and this delay compounds.
  - vladvasiliu 1y ago
    I hear Norway has good charging infrastructure. Here in France, on highways, there are usually chargers at gas stations, with spots available (don't know the specifics; I don't own an EV). However, it should be noted that I avoid driving during very busy days, so I can't comment on what happens in that situation, especially since traffic would reduce an EV's range. However, where I live in Paris, there are three parking spots with chargers available around my apartment. Some apartment buildings have underground parking, for which I understand there's a push to set up charging infrastructure, but many buildings do not. Mine doesn't. If I had an EV I'd have to wait around for one of the three places to free up, wait for the battery to charge, then go move the car to a different spot. Now, I don't particularly need a car, which is why I don't own one, but for my use case, an EV would be an all-around hassle to keep charged. I also mainly use vehicles to go on trips to remote places—I very rarely take highways. Hell, a few years ago I was in the mountains, and gas stations were so far apart that I was running on reserve when I got to one. I'm not against EVs, and it's clear there are many situations where they're great. But I think we're still in a transition period with plenty of situations that aren't covered yet.
hvb2 1y ago
A lot of new cars in western Europe are bought as company cars or leased by a company. Companies never buy used, so I think a lot of those sales are from buyers who wouldn't consider used. So those buyers are only now starting to create supply in the second hand market

tw04 1y ago

> Now a few years later, you can buy a BYD for 26k, that does 450km (ext version) on paper. That same BYD is WAY more fancy, tech gadgets etc... Right, because the other $26k is being subsidized by the party. And much like the US found out with rare earths: once China has the market cornered, the price will rise and/or they’ll use access to their goods as a tool of war. They’re playing the long game and western nations seem unable or unwilling to do the same. https://insideevs.com/news/763687/china-zero-mile-used-evs/ https://insideevs.com/news/763687/china-zero-mile-used-evs/

adrianN 1y ago
That might be true, but it doesn’t matter for the buying decision of the individual consumer.
- BobbyTables2 1y ago
  It will matter a lot if (replacement) battery prices skyrocket…
  - dvfjsdhgfv 1y ago
    Most individual buyers are unable or not willing to take global perspectives into account, otherwise Japanese cars would never make impact on the American market for example. You need people in power to make informed decisions, and even then you risk the only result will be people getting very angry that politician mess up with the market.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
    I don't really see a prospect of that, since the batteries are steadily getting both better and cheaper. What makes you think so?
    - adrianN 1y ago
      For E-Bikes at least communication between the engine and the battery pack is encrypted and you can't replace either without the manufacturer's consent.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
        This seems more like an added feature of some E-Bikes, rather then an essential design element of E-Bikes in general. And even if true, it doesn't follow for me that "therefor, batteries must become more expensive in general, despite the current trend". I think you're implying lock-in and extractive profits, rather than rising cost of manufacture. It's an argument for diversity of key industries, and that batteries might become such. I agree with that. But as an argument that (in parent the comment's words) "so, battery prices will skyrocket", it seems a bit thin to me. battery prices are expected to "Plummet" not "Skyrocket": https://cleantechnica.com/2025/10/15/plummeting-battery-prices-will-push-bevs-below-parity-soon/ https://cleantechnica.com/2025/10/15/plummeting-battery-pric...
saxenaabhi 1y ago
There are/were plenty of subsidies on EV cars in US/EU. Also chinese companies innovate better and have more efficient supply chains that western ones. The push to ban chinese automakers is stupid because it punishes customers at the benefit of automakers. Crony Capitalism at its worse.
- edm0nd 1y ago
  >Also chinese companies innovate better and have more efficient supply chains that western ones. Yeah because they just steal and copy everything from Western companies and others worldwide. Why spend hundreds of millions and 10 years doing R&D when you can just hack in and steal it? It's the Chinese way. Chinese hackers took trillions in intellectual property from about 30 multinational companies - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chinese-hackers-took-trillions-in-intellectual-property-from-about-30-multinational-companies/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chinese-hackers-took-trillions-... The annual cost to the U.S. economy of counterfeit goods, pirated software, and theft of trade secrets is between $225 billion and $600 billion. China is the world’s principal infringer of intellectual property, and it uses its laws and regulations to put foreign companies at a disadvantage and its own companies at an advantage. - https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/china-exec-summary-risk-to-corporate-america-2019.pdf https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/china-exec-summary-risk-... - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_property_infringement_by_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_pr... Salt Typhoon is an advanced persistent threat actor believed to be operated by China's Ministry of State Security (MSS) which has conducted high-profile cyber espionage campaigns, particularly against the United States. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Typhoon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Typhoon - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aurora https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aurora Industrial espionage: How China sneaks out America's technology secrets - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-64206950 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-64206950 etc etc etc
  - saxenaabhi 1y ago
    Yes GM is lagging behind BYD not because it's leadership and managerial culture but because "chinese copy". And the solution is to punish consumers and enrich GM's totally failed leadership and irrational shareholders by throttling competition chinese. Here in europe cars have become so expensive compared to just 10y ago. Some of it is because of stupid green policies, but most if because EU carmakers have been successful in reducing the competitive pressure from China by the use of tariffs on chinese firms.
benjiro 1y ago
Your also forgetting that Chinese cars have a large import tariff. Current rates are BYD (17%), Geely (18.8%), and SAIC (35.3%). > And much like the US found out with rare earths: Rare earths is not rare at all. China has a cornered the market on processing those minerals for cheap. The problem is that we in the West have no appetite to actually support companies to process those "rare" earths. And the US is really the last country to even talk about batteries, when the arrested 300+ Koreans that worked to get a US battery plant going. > They’re playing the long game and western nations seem unable or unwilling to do the same. Its not just a government issue, its a companies issue. You think that car companies in Europe do not get subsidies? Have you ever looked at how much subsidies they get opening new plants or renovating plants? Reality is that a lot of car companies enjoyed their little monopolie positions in Europe. Sure, we got a lot of brands, but in reality its a illusion of competition, as most brands are owned by a few big companies. China had a different situation, where yes, there was subsidies from the government (and a lot of misuse of those subsidies), but you had 100's of car manufactures entering the markets. I mean, we talk about BYD often but BYD was not even a car manufacturer until 2005 ... The result is a strong competition between car makers, what resulted in a lot of technological development and a push to be better then the next guy(s). Constant copy and innovation work. Work to reduces prices to be able to compete better, as remember, their competitor also go those subsidies. We have this issue with our car industry only to thank to our own car industry. Frankly, i am happy to see the Chinese enter the EU market, for the simply fact that it pushed the EU car makers to actually start innovating again and offering more to the clients. The issue with competition to dead was a issue in new upcoming industries, like solar. Because their both sides started with the same level vs +subsidies. The car industry is a totally different beast with deep pockets and manufacturing capabilities. So lets not act like "poor EU car makers".

aftbit 1y ago

>the lack of charging in the city This would be the killer for me. I have a private garage with plugs, and even at 120V, I can out-charge my typical driving needs. I work from home and only occasionally take trips beyond a few miles, with a few longer road trips a year. My IONIQ 5 (USA) does 300 miles (480 km) on paper, but in practice, I've seen a fair bit less. That said, it does charge up 20->80% in under 20 minutes at a fast charger.

wafflemaker 1y ago
Disclaimer: never owned a car, no driving licence. Also talking about Norway with generally good charger infrastructure. Was on a road trip last summer, around Norway, in VW id.Buzz. Charging time of 5min vs 20min doesn't matter. When you're on that long trip, you need time to eat, go to bathroom, walk a little so your legs/back doesn't hurt. In the whole trip there was maybe one forced trip to a shop, because we had time to burn (the only charger was too slow and needed a whole hour to charge). OTOH have a friend with first gen Leaf and his max charging speed is pretty slow. He additionally can't charge at home and this makes the slow charging time a little off a nuisance.
- yakshaving_jgt 1y ago
  > Charging time of 5min vs 20min doesn't matter. I think that’s only true if chargers are sitting idle. Otherwise you’re waiting longer in a queue before you can begin charging, and this delay compounds.
- vladvasiliu 1y ago
  I hear Norway has good charging infrastructure. Here in France, on highways, there are usually chargers at gas stations, with spots available (don't know the specifics; I don't own an EV). However, it should be noted that I avoid driving during very busy days, so I can't comment on what happens in that situation, especially since traffic would reduce an EV's range. However, where I live in Paris, there are three parking spots with chargers available around my apartment. Some apartment buildings have underground parking, for which I understand there's a push to set up charging infrastructure, but many buildings do not. Mine doesn't. If I had an EV I'd have to wait around for one of the three places to free up, wait for the battery to charge, then go move the car to a different spot. Now, I don't particularly need a car, which is why I don't own one, but for my use case, an EV would be an all-around hassle to keep charged. I also mainly use vehicles to go on trips to remote places—I very rarely take highways. Hell, a few years ago I was in the mountains, and gas stations were so far apart that I was running on reserve when I got to one. I'm not against EVs, and it's clear there are many situations where they're great. But I think we're still in a transition period with plenty of situations that aren't covered yet.

hvb2 1y ago

A lot of new cars in western Europe are bought as company cars or leased by a company. Companies never buy used, so I think a lot of those sales are from buyers who wouldn't consider used. So those buyers are only now starting to create supply in the second hand market