4 ms·

In what way? Specifically, in what way compared to a Tesla from 5 years ago? (Most other makes were not great 5 years ago.)

benjiro 1y ago
Not the person you asked the question but i can answer this partially. I see from the EV my parents bought, they got for 22k euro, a car that does 240km on paper. Now a few years later, you can buy a BYD for 26k, that does 450km (ext version) on paper. That same BYD is WAY more fancy, tech gadgets etc... But that is comparing a lower market segment where this effect is stronger. On the higher end market, where the Tesla's used to dominate, we see less movement as those cars already came with tons of tech, and large batteries. Thing is, i am still not buying a EV despite them being better. The same arguments we had with EV disadvantages is still present today. I rather buy a second hand gasoline engine simply because of the convenience of the default 600 a 700km range on most vehicles, the 5 minute tank job, the lack of charging in the city, the prices despite the heavier depreciation in the second hand market are still worse. Ironically the gasoline car we bought 10 years ago, for 7.5k, still sells today for 8k in todays market (added 50k kms on the car). So even if we take a cut, the actual gasoline engine depreciation is strangely less strong. I track several gasoline cars where i had a interest in from years ago, same phenomenon. For some reason you expect gasoline cars to drop more in pricing because now in EU 17% of new cars sales are EVs and 36% are hybrid. So more gasoline cars on second hand market? No ... because people are also buying less cars because of the economy, more work from home etc. Resulting in actually less second hand cars as people hold on to their vehicles longer, waiting out this transition periode.
- tw04 1y ago
  > Now a few years later, you can buy a BYD for 26k, that does 450km (ext version) on paper. That same BYD is WAY more fancy, tech gadgets etc... Right, because the other $26k is being subsidized by the party. And much like the US found out with rare earths: once China has the market cornered, the price will rise and/or they’ll use access to their goods as a tool of war. They’re playing the long game and western nations seem unable or unwilling to do the same. https://insideevs.com/news/763687/china-zero-mile-used-evs/ https://insideevs.com/news/763687/china-zero-mile-used-evs/
  - adrianN 1y ago
    That might be true, but it doesn’t matter for the buying decision of the individual consumer.
    - BobbyTables2 1y ago
      It will matter a lot if (replacement) battery prices skyrocket…
      - dvfjsdhgfv 1y ago
        Most individual buyers are unable or not willing to take global perspectives into account, otherwise Japanese cars would never make impact on the American market for example. You need people in power to make informed decisions, and even then you risk the only result will be people getting very angry that politician mess up with the market.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
        I don't really see a prospect of that, since the batteries are steadily getting both better and cheaper. What makes you think so?
        adrianN 1y ago
        For E-Bikes at least communication between the engine and the battery pack is encrypted and you can't replace either without the manufacturer's consent.
        SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
        This seems more like an added feature of some E-Bikes, rather then an essential design element of E-Bikes in general. And even if true, it doesn't follow for me that "therefor, batteries must become more expensive in general, despite the current trend". I think you're implying lock-in and extractive profits, rather than rising cost of manufacture. It's an argument for diversity of key industries, and that batteries might become such. I agree with that. But as an argument that (in parent the comment's words) "so, battery prices will skyrocket", it seems a bit thin to me. battery prices are expected to "Plummet" not "Skyrocket": https://cleantechnica.com/2025/10/15/plummeting-battery-prices-will-push-bevs-below-parity-soon/ https://cleantechnica.com/2025/10/15/plummeting-battery-pric...
- aftbit 1y ago
  >the lack of charging in the city This would be the killer for me. I have a private garage with plugs, and even at 120V, I can out-charge my typical driving needs. I work from home and only occasionally take trips beyond a few miles, with a few longer road trips a year. My IONIQ 5 (USA) does 300 miles (480 km) on paper, but in practice, I've seen a fair bit less. That said, it does charge up 20->80% in under 20 minutes at a fast charger.
  - wafflemaker 1y ago
    Disclaimer: never owned a car, no driving licence. Also talking about Norway with generally good charger infrastructure. Was on a road trip last summer, around Norway, in VW id.Buzz. Charging time of 5min vs 20min doesn't matter. When you're on that long trip, you need time to eat, go to bathroom, walk a little so your legs/back doesn't hurt. In the whole trip there was maybe one forced trip to a shop, because we had time to burn (the only charger was too slow and needed a whole hour to charge). OTOH have a friend with first gen Leaf and his max charging speed is pretty slow. He additionally can't charge at home and this makes the slow charging time a little off a nuisance.
    - yakshaving_jgt 1y ago
      > Charging time of 5min vs 20min doesn't matter. I think that’s only true if chargers are sitting idle. Otherwise you’re waiting longer in a queue before you can begin charging, and this delay compounds.
    - vladvasiliu 1y ago
      I hear Norway has good charging infrastructure. Here in France, on highways, there are usually chargers at gas stations, with spots available (don't know the specifics; I don't own an EV). However, it should be noted that I avoid driving during very busy days, so I can't comment on what happens in that situation, especially since traffic would reduce an EV's range. However, where I live in Paris, there are three parking spots with chargers available around my apartment. Some apartment buildings have underground parking, for which I understand there's a push to set up charging infrastructure, but many buildings do not. Mine doesn't. If I had an EV I'd have to wait around for one of the three places to free up, wait for the battery to charge, then go move the car to a different spot. Now, I don't particularly need a car, which is why I don't own one, but for my use case, an EV would be an all-around hassle to keep charged. I also mainly use vehicles to go on trips to remote places—I very rarely take highways. Hell, a few years ago I was in the mountains, and gas stations were so far apart that I was running on reserve when I got to one. I'm not against EVs, and it's clear there are many situations where they're great. But I think we're still in a transition period with plenty of situations that aren't covered yet.
- hvb2 1y ago
  A lot of new cars in western Europe are bought as company cars or leased by a company. Companies never buy used, so I think a lot of those sales are from buyers who wouldn't consider used. So those buyers are only now starting to create supply in the second hand market
chrneu 1y ago
Most EVs are basically high end luxury tech mobiles now. What ICE manus charge $5k in their tech package is basically standard across most EVs nowadays. It's insane the amount of bells/whistles cheap EVs come standard with now.
- WarOnPrivacy 1y ago
  > Most EVs are basically high end luxury tech mobiles now. I am fairly baffled when I come across positive vibes for modern cars. I'm not declaring those vibes wrong. I'm saying I don't understand the lack of angst and resentment for what vehicle owners have lost (full ownership - what they've bought can no longer be assumed to be theirs. features and operations can be [and are!] stolen by manufacturers. whole vehicles have been effectively stolen when a manufacturer declares a vehicle is no longer operational [because something something violation]. other things owners have lost: safe tactile controls, non-extortionate repair costs - which insurance companies will pass on to every policy holder they can) how drivers are mistreated by manufacturers (relentless surveillance, driving data collected to exploit owners and empower other entities [ex:insurance] to financially or otherwise mistreat them - inc deeply personal data like mental health and other personal trips. nothing is off the table.) how drivers are forced to mistreat everyone around them (continually blinding drivers, bicyclists and pedestrians. continually robbing other drivers of critical distance visibility. leaving inches on both sides of their parked car for passengers in adjacent cars to exit) how they are forced to be less-safe drivers (forcing eyes away from the road to make routine adjustments to climate, etc - adjustments that for generations were trivially done by touch) I can't be okay with this. Not because of some moral stand. It's because I feel awful when I'm mistreated. And I'm unhappy when I am forced to mistreat others. More so when it's hours a day, every day.
  - bfdm 1y ago
    This is why we need to pass right to repair (or modify) legislation , return control over your own belongings. This must supersede any TPM/copyright restrictions or other encumbrances.
pinkgolem 1y ago
Let's have a look at the standard range. 2021 Tesla is on the Intel processor, so the software runs laggy and is missing some updates. It would likely have the heatpump which was introduced 2020 but some markets only got it 2021 if I remember correctly. You are also missing on cooled seats, have worse noise isolation & worse dampers, no lfp Batterie, 130km less range and so on
darkwater 1y ago
Tesla is a bad example here because it was the best by a large margin 5 years ago, and it more or less stagnated (especially in markets where FSD is not available). But - at least in Europe - the cheapest Tesla you could buy 5 years ago was over 50 grands, now you can have one for 35k with no subsides, depending on the market. This alone has a giant effect on the second-hand market (of Tesla, which again was the dominant brand years ago so it's also the dominant second-hand brand)
- bryanrasmussen 1y ago
  I thought nobody wanted Teslas in EU because of Elon Musk? I wouldn't expect it to be the dominant second-hand brand.
  - mirekrusin 1y ago
    There are a lot of them on the roads in Europe.
  - wafflemaker 1y ago
    Tesla is still the cool geek car. And geeks care more about tech and gadgets than politics.
  - darkwater 1y ago
    That drove down new cars sales in a few countries indeed. Also there are viable alternatives for new buyer's (although Tesla is still probably the best value for money). But the second-hand market is different and if you want a second-hand EV that you can actually use for long trips, Tesla is the only option. Yes, there are people traveling with Kona or Leaf but personally I would not do it.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
    There are still lots of Teslas on the roads where I am, relative to to other EVs. Cars are big expensive assets, they don't vanish, usually. Even if you now regret the purchase, you may be stuck with it for a few years. For any given brand, the number of vehicles on the road isn't a function of the brand's popularity this quarter. Its the sum of popularities over the last decade or more. So, loss of reputation takes a long time to feed through. And people wanting to unload them won't make them less prevalent on second-hand markets, quite the opposite. But also, the % of EVs that I see that are Teslas is slowly declining, as other brands proliferate and the EV market gets larger.
robotresearcher 1y ago
I have the 2024 Model 3, traded for a 2020 Model 3. The Highland revisions made the car much quieter, less rattly and boxy. The windows are two-ply for sound reduction. The suspension feels better and less rattly. The panels fit. Water doesn’t come up inside the doors now. I don’t know if there’s any significant new EV tech in there, but they significantly upgraded the rider experience by improving their car-building. Of course, VW, Audi, etc have been making doors that fit for a long time, so this could be a Tesla-specific thing. Both versions are super fun to drive. Just whizzy and responsive. Fun. The new one also doesn’t suck on noisy highway cruising like the old one did.

benjiro 1y ago

Not the person you asked the question but i can answer this partially. I see from the EV my parents bought, they got for 22k euro, a car that does 240km on paper. Now a few years later, you can buy a BYD for 26k, that does 450km (ext version) on paper. That same BYD is WAY more fancy, tech gadgets etc... But that is comparing a lower market segment where this effect is stronger. On the higher end market, where the Tesla's used to dominate, we see less movement as those cars already came with tons of tech, and large batteries. Thing is, i am still not buying a EV despite them being better. The same arguments we had with EV disadvantages is still present today. I rather buy a second hand gasoline engine simply because of the convenience of the default 600 a 700km range on most vehicles, the 5 minute tank job, the lack of charging in the city, the prices despite the heavier depreciation in the second hand market are still worse. Ironically the gasoline car we bought 10 years ago, for 7.5k, still sells today for 8k in todays market (added 50k kms on the car). So even if we take a cut, the actual gasoline engine depreciation is strangely less strong. I track several gasoline cars where i had a interest in from years ago, same phenomenon. For some reason you expect gasoline cars to drop more in pricing because now in EU 17% of new cars sales are EVs and 36% are hybrid. So more gasoline cars on second hand market? No ... because people are also buying less cars because of the economy, more work from home etc. Resulting in actually less second hand cars as people hold on to their vehicles longer, waiting out this transition periode.

tw04 1y ago
> Now a few years later, you can buy a BYD for 26k, that does 450km (ext version) on paper. That same BYD is WAY more fancy, tech gadgets etc... Right, because the other $26k is being subsidized by the party. And much like the US found out with rare earths: once China has the market cornered, the price will rise and/or they’ll use access to their goods as a tool of war. They’re playing the long game and western nations seem unable or unwilling to do the same. https://insideevs.com/news/763687/china-zero-mile-used-evs/ https://insideevs.com/news/763687/china-zero-mile-used-evs/
- adrianN 1y ago
  That might be true, but it doesn’t matter for the buying decision of the individual consumer.
  - BobbyTables2 1y ago
    It will matter a lot if (replacement) battery prices skyrocket…
    - dvfjsdhgfv 1y ago
      Most individual buyers are unable or not willing to take global perspectives into account, otherwise Japanese cars would never make impact on the American market for example. You need people in power to make informed decisions, and even then you risk the only result will be people getting very angry that politician mess up with the market.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
      I don't really see a prospect of that, since the batteries are steadily getting both better and cheaper. What makes you think so?
      - adrianN 1y ago
        For E-Bikes at least communication between the engine and the battery pack is encrypted and you can't replace either without the manufacturer's consent.
        SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
        This seems more like an added feature of some E-Bikes, rather then an essential design element of E-Bikes in general. And even if true, it doesn't follow for me that "therefor, batteries must become more expensive in general, despite the current trend". I think you're implying lock-in and extractive profits, rather than rising cost of manufacture. It's an argument for diversity of key industries, and that batteries might become such. I agree with that. But as an argument that (in parent the comment's words) "so, battery prices will skyrocket", it seems a bit thin to me. battery prices are expected to "Plummet" not "Skyrocket": https://cleantechnica.com/2025/10/15/plummeting-battery-prices-will-push-bevs-below-parity-soon/ https://cleantechnica.com/2025/10/15/plummeting-battery-pric...
aftbit 1y ago
>the lack of charging in the city This would be the killer for me. I have a private garage with plugs, and even at 120V, I can out-charge my typical driving needs. I work from home and only occasionally take trips beyond a few miles, with a few longer road trips a year. My IONIQ 5 (USA) does 300 miles (480 km) on paper, but in practice, I've seen a fair bit less. That said, it does charge up 20->80% in under 20 minutes at a fast charger.
- wafflemaker 1y ago
  Disclaimer: never owned a car, no driving licence. Also talking about Norway with generally good charger infrastructure. Was on a road trip last summer, around Norway, in VW id.Buzz. Charging time of 5min vs 20min doesn't matter. When you're on that long trip, you need time to eat, go to bathroom, walk a little so your legs/back doesn't hurt. In the whole trip there was maybe one forced trip to a shop, because we had time to burn (the only charger was too slow and needed a whole hour to charge). OTOH have a friend with first gen Leaf and his max charging speed is pretty slow. He additionally can't charge at home and this makes the slow charging time a little off a nuisance.
  - yakshaving_jgt 1y ago
    > Charging time of 5min vs 20min doesn't matter. I think that’s only true if chargers are sitting idle. Otherwise you’re waiting longer in a queue before you can begin charging, and this delay compounds.
  - vladvasiliu 1y ago
    I hear Norway has good charging infrastructure. Here in France, on highways, there are usually chargers at gas stations, with spots available (don't know the specifics; I don't own an EV). However, it should be noted that I avoid driving during very busy days, so I can't comment on what happens in that situation, especially since traffic would reduce an EV's range. However, where I live in Paris, there are three parking spots with chargers available around my apartment. Some apartment buildings have underground parking, for which I understand there's a push to set up charging infrastructure, but many buildings do not. Mine doesn't. If I had an EV I'd have to wait around for one of the three places to free up, wait for the battery to charge, then go move the car to a different spot. Now, I don't particularly need a car, which is why I don't own one, but for my use case, an EV would be an all-around hassle to keep charged. I also mainly use vehicles to go on trips to remote places—I very rarely take highways. Hell, a few years ago I was in the mountains, and gas stations were so far apart that I was running on reserve when I got to one. I'm not against EVs, and it's clear there are many situations where they're great. But I think we're still in a transition period with plenty of situations that aren't covered yet.
hvb2 1y ago
A lot of new cars in western Europe are bought as company cars or leased by a company. Companies never buy used, so I think a lot of those sales are from buyers who wouldn't consider used. So those buyers are only now starting to create supply in the second hand market

chrneu 1y ago

Most EVs are basically high end luxury tech mobiles now. What ICE manus charge $5k in their tech package is basically standard across most EVs nowadays. It's insane the amount of bells/whistles cheap EVs come standard with now.

WarOnPrivacy 1y ago
> Most EVs are basically high end luxury tech mobiles now. I am fairly baffled when I come across positive vibes for modern cars. I'm not declaring those vibes wrong. I'm saying I don't understand the lack of angst and resentment for what vehicle owners have lost (full ownership - what they've bought can no longer be assumed to be theirs. features and operations can be [and are!] stolen by manufacturers. whole vehicles have been effectively stolen when a manufacturer declares a vehicle is no longer operational [because something something violation]. other things owners have lost: safe tactile controls, non-extortionate repair costs - which insurance companies will pass on to every policy holder they can) how drivers are mistreated by manufacturers (relentless surveillance, driving data collected to exploit owners and empower other entities [ex:insurance] to financially or otherwise mistreat them - inc deeply personal data like mental health and other personal trips. nothing is off the table.) how drivers are forced to mistreat everyone around them (continually blinding drivers, bicyclists and pedestrians. continually robbing other drivers of critical distance visibility. leaving inches on both sides of their parked car for passengers in adjacent cars to exit) how they are forced to be less-safe drivers (forcing eyes away from the road to make routine adjustments to climate, etc - adjustments that for generations were trivially done by touch) I can't be okay with this. Not because of some moral stand. It's because I feel awful when I'm mistreated. And I'm unhappy when I am forced to mistreat others. More so when it's hours a day, every day.
- bfdm 1y ago
  This is why we need to pass right to repair (or modify) legislation , return control over your own belongings. This must supersede any TPM/copyright restrictions or other encumbrances.

pinkgolem 1y ago

Let's have a look at the standard range. 2021 Tesla is on the Intel processor, so the software runs laggy and is missing some updates. It would likely have the heatpump which was introduced 2020 but some markets only got it 2021 if I remember correctly. You are also missing on cooled seats, have worse noise isolation & worse dampers, no lfp Batterie, 130km less range and so on

darkwater 1y ago

Tesla is a bad example here because it was the best by a large margin 5 years ago, and it more or less stagnated (especially in markets where FSD is not available). But - at least in Europe - the cheapest Tesla you could buy 5 years ago was over 50 grands, now you can have one for 35k with no subsides, depending on the market. This alone has a giant effect on the second-hand market (of Tesla, which again was the dominant brand years ago so it's also the dominant second-hand brand)

bryanrasmussen 1y ago
I thought nobody wanted Teslas in EU because of Elon Musk? I wouldn't expect it to be the dominant second-hand brand.
- mirekrusin 1y ago
  There are a lot of them on the roads in Europe.
- wafflemaker 1y ago
  Tesla is still the cool geek car. And geeks care more about tech and gadgets than politics.
- darkwater 1y ago
  That drove down new cars sales in a few countries indeed. Also there are viable alternatives for new buyer's (although Tesla is still probably the best value for money). But the second-hand market is different and if you want a second-hand EV that you can actually use for long trips, Tesla is the only option. Yes, there are people traveling with Kona or Leaf but personally I would not do it.
- SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
  There are still lots of Teslas on the roads where I am, relative to to other EVs. Cars are big expensive assets, they don't vanish, usually. Even if you now regret the purchase, you may be stuck with it for a few years. For any given brand, the number of vehicles on the road isn't a function of the brand's popularity this quarter. Its the sum of popularities over the last decade or more. So, loss of reputation takes a long time to feed through. And people wanting to unload them won't make them less prevalent on second-hand markets, quite the opposite. But also, the % of EVs that I see that are Teslas is slowly declining, as other brands proliferate and the EV market gets larger.

robotresearcher 1y ago

I have the 2024 Model 3, traded for a 2020 Model 3. The Highland revisions made the car much quieter, less rattly and boxy. The windows are two-ply for sound reduction. The suspension feels better and less rattly. The panels fit. Water doesn’t come up inside the doors now. I don’t know if there’s any significant new EV tech in there, but they significantly upgraded the rider experience by improving their car-building. Of course, VW, Audi, etc have been making doors that fit for a long time, so this could be a Tesla-specific thing. Both versions are super fun to drive. Just whizzy and responsive. Fun. The new one also doesn’t suck on noisy highway cruising like the old one did.