5 ms·

I'm not sure. There's a view that, as I understand it, suggests that language is intelligence. That language is a requirement for understanding. An example mig

I'm not sure. There's a view that, as I understand it, suggests that language is intelligence. That language is a requirement for understanding. An example might be kind of the contrary—that you might not be able to hold an idea in your head until it has been named. For myself, until I heard the word gestalt (maybe a fitting example?) I am not sure I could have understood the concept. But when it is described it starts to coalesce—and then when named, it became real. (If that makes sense.) FWIW, Zeitgeist is another one of those concepts/words for me. I guess I have to thank the German language. Perhaps it is why other animals on this planet seem to us lacking intelligence. Perhaps it is their lack of complex language holding their minds back.

godelski 1y ago
> There's a view that suggests that language is intelligence. I think you find the limits when you dig in. What are you calling language? Can you really say that Eliza doesn't meet your criteria? What about a more advanced version? I mean we've been passing the Turing Test for decades now. > That language is a requirement for understanding. But this contradicts your earlier statement. If language is a requirement then it must precede intelligence, right? I think you must then revisit your definition of language and ensure that it matches to all the creatures that you consider intelligent. At least by doing this you'll make some falsifiable claims and can make progress. I think an ant is intelligent, but I also think ants do things far more sophisticated than the average person thinks. It's an easy trap, not knowing what you don't know. But if we do the above we get some path to aid in discovery, right? > that you might not be able to hold an idea in your head until it has been named Are you familiar with Anendophasia? It is the condition where a person does not have an internal monologue. They think without words. The definition of language is still flexible enough that you can probably still call that language, just like in your example, but it shows a lack of precision in the definition, even if it is accurate. > Perhaps it is why other animals on this planet seem to us lacking intelligence One thing to also consider is if language is necessary for societies or intelligence. Can we decouple the two? I'm not aware of any great examples, although octopi and many other cephalopods are fairly asocial creatures. Yet they are considered highly intelligent due to their adaptive and creative nature. Perhaps language is a necessary condition for advanced intelligence, but not intelligence alone. Perhaps it is communication and societies, differentiating from an internalized language. Certainly the social group can play an influence here, as coalitions can do more than the sum of the individuals (by definition). But the big question is if these things are necessary. Getting the correct causal graph, removing the confounding variables, is no easy task. But I think we should still try and explore differing ideas. While I don't think you're right, I'll encourage you to pursue your path if you encourage me to pursue mine. We can compete, but it should be friendly, as our competition forces us to help see flaws in our models. Maybe the social element isn't a necessary condition, but I have no doubt that it is a beneficial tool. I'm more frustrated by those wanting to call the problem solved. It obviously isn't, as it's been so difficult to get generalization and consensus among experts (across fields).
- the_gipsy 1y ago
  > It is the condition where a person does not have an internal monologue. These people are just nutjobs that misinterpreted what internal monologue means, and have trouble doing basic introspection. I know there are a myriad of similar conditions, aphantasia, synaesthesia, etc. But someone without internal monologue simply could not function in our society, or at least not pass as someone without obvious mental diminishment. If there really were some other, hidden code in the mind, that could express "thoughts" in the same depth as language does - then please show it already. At least the tiniest bit of a hint.
  - godelski 1y ago
    I know some of these people. We've had deep conversations about what is going on in our thought processes. Their description significantly differs from mine. These people are common enough that you likely know some. It's just not a topic that frequently comes up. It is also a spectrum, not a binary thing (though full anendophasia does exist, it is just on the extreme end). I think your own experiences should allow you to doubt your claim. For example, I know when I get really into a fiction book I'm reading that I transition from a point where I'm reading the words in my head to seeing the scenes more like a movie, or more accurately like a dream. I talk to myself in my head a lot, but I can also think without words. I do this a lot when I'm thinking about more physical things like when I'm machining something, building things, or even loading dishwasher. So it is hard for me to believe that while I primarily use an internal monologue that there aren't people that primarily use a different strategy. On top of that, well, I'm pretty certain my cat doesn't meow in her head. I'm not certain she has a language at all. So why would it be surprising that this condition exists? You'd have to make the assumption that there was a switch in human evolution. Where it happened all at once or all others went extinct. I find that less likely than the idea that we just don't talk enough about how we think to our friends. Certainly there are times where you think without a voice in your head. If not, well you're on the extreme other end. After all, we aren't clones. People are different, even if there's a lot of similarities.
    - the_gipsy 1y ago

godelski 1y ago

> There's a view that suggests that language is intelligence. I think you find the limits when you dig in. What are you calling language? Can you really say that Eliza doesn't meet your criteria? What about a more advanced version? I mean we've been passing the Turing Test for decades now. > That language is a requirement for understanding. But this contradicts your earlier statement. If language is a requirement then it must precede intelligence, right? I think you must then revisit your definition of language and ensure that it matches to all the creatures that you consider intelligent. At least by doing this you'll make some falsifiable claims and can make progress. I think an ant is intelligent, but I also think ants do things far more sophisticated than the average person thinks. It's an easy trap, not knowing what you don't know. But if we do the above we get some path to aid in discovery, right? > that you might not be able to hold an idea in your head until it has been named Are you familiar with Anendophasia? It is the condition where a person does not have an internal monologue. They think without words. The definition of language is still flexible enough that you can probably still call that language, just like in your example, but it shows a lack of precision in the definition, even if it is accurate. > Perhaps it is why other animals on this planet seem to us lacking intelligence One thing to also consider is if language is necessary for societies or intelligence. Can we decouple the two? I'm not aware of any great examples, although octopi and many other cephalopods are fairly asocial creatures. Yet they are considered highly intelligent due to their adaptive and creative nature. Perhaps language is a necessary condition for advanced intelligence, but not intelligence alone. Perhaps it is communication and societies, differentiating from an internalized language. Certainly the social group can play an influence here, as coalitions can do more than the sum of the individuals (by definition). But the big question is if these things are necessary. Getting the correct causal graph, removing the confounding variables, is no easy task. But I think we should still try and explore differing ideas. While I don't think you're right, I'll encourage you to pursue your path if you encourage me to pursue mine. We can compete, but it should be friendly, as our competition forces us to help see flaws in our models. Maybe the social element isn't a necessary condition, but I have no doubt that it is a beneficial tool. I'm more frustrated by those wanting to call the problem solved. It obviously isn't, as it's been so difficult to get generalization and consensus among experts (across fields).

the_gipsy 1y ago
> It is the condition where a person does not have an internal monologue. These people are just nutjobs that misinterpreted what internal monologue means, and have trouble doing basic introspection. I know there are a myriad of similar conditions, aphantasia, synaesthesia, etc. But someone without internal monologue simply could not function in our society, or at least not pass as someone without obvious mental diminishment. If there really were some other, hidden code in the mind, that could express "thoughts" in the same depth as language does - then please show it already. At least the tiniest bit of a hint.
- godelski 1y ago
  I know some of these people. We've had deep conversations about what is going on in our thought processes. Their description significantly differs from mine. These people are common enough that you likely know some. It's just not a topic that frequently comes up. It is also a spectrum, not a binary thing (though full anendophasia does exist, it is just on the extreme end). I think your own experiences should allow you to doubt your claim. For example, I know when I get really into a fiction book I'm reading that I transition from a point where I'm reading the words in my head to seeing the scenes more like a movie, or more accurately like a dream. I talk to myself in my head a lot, but I can also think without words. I do this a lot when I'm thinking about more physical things like when I'm machining something, building things, or even loading dishwasher. So it is hard for me to believe that while I primarily use an internal monologue that there aren't people that primarily use a different strategy. On top of that, well, I'm pretty certain my cat doesn't meow in her head. I'm not certain she has a language at all. So why would it be surprising that this condition exists? You'd have to make the assumption that there was a switch in human evolution. Where it happened all at once or all others went extinct. I find that less likely than the idea that we just don't talk enough about how we think to our friends. Certainly there are times where you think without a voice in your head. If not, well you're on the extreme other end. After all, we aren't clones. People are different, even if there's a lot of similarities.
  - the_gipsy 1y ago