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> EV are progressing fast so they lose value quick, Are they really, though? A 2021 Model 3, Mach-e, Polestar 2, Model Y, F-150 Lightning, e-Tron, or ID.4 (to

> EV are progressing fast so they lose value quick, Are they really, though? A 2021 Model 3, Mach-e, Polestar 2, Model Y, F-150 Lightning, e-Tron, or ID.4 (to name just a few) are not too different from the ones sold today. Aside from software updates and minor refinements (mostly DFM), I don't see much progress. That's not a problem, since they're all competent vehicles for single-car households. Several 2025/26 models have even been de-contented compared to their 2021 selves. Trying to steel-man your argument a little, the only models I can think of with significant progress are the bZ4X/Solterra (widely panned due to initially uncompetitive specs and pricing), Leaf (which has been getting small, incremental improvements for more than a decade) and the now-discontinued Bolt (which was the cheapest road-tripable EV). I think you really have to be looking compliance cars that entered the market before the Model 3 and/or models that were acknowledged as uncompetitive when new to find significant/fast progress. No, the real problem is that the true market-clearing price for most of these vehicles was $7500-$10000 less than MSRP (which was set knowing the regulatory environment), combined with the false calculation of depreciation based on MSRP instead of market price.

tartoran 1y ago
I'm sure for newer EV models makers cut down on production costs but they may also cut down on quality as well.
nostrademons 1y ago
Presumably you’re in the US, given the models you list. Don’t look there, because the best EVs are not available in the U.S. because of trade barriers. Look at what BYD and Toyota are doing in China.
- fnordpiglet 1y ago
  How does that impact depreciation in the US?
  - nostrademons 1y ago
    The article here is about rental car fleets, and explicitly states that consumers (and particularly Teslas) are not seeing the same depreciation. Rental car fleets often buy EVs that are available on the global market (eg Kia or Hyundai models) and sell back into that global market.
- meindnoch 1y ago
  Ok, I'll bite: what are BYD and Toyota doing in China?
  - SapporoChris 1y ago
    https://insideevs.com/news/758625/byd-megawatt-charging-demo-china/ https://insideevs.com/news/758625/byd-megawatt-charging-demo... https://time.com/collections/best-inventions-2025/7318540/byd-seagull/ https://time.com/collections/best-inventions-2025/7318540/by... https://www.electrive.com/2025/06/02/byd-expands-megawatt-charging-for-cars-in-china/ https://www.electrive.com/2025/06/02/byd-expands-megawatt-ch... https://thenextavenue.com/2025/07/28/how-byds-latest-innovations-are-shaping-the-future-of-electric-vehicles/ https://thenextavenue.com/2025/07/28/how-byds-latest-innovat... And that's just some low hanging fruit.
AnthonyMouse 1y ago
> No, the real problem is that the true market-clearing price for most of these vehicles was $7500-$10000 less than MSRP (which was set knowing the regulatory environment), combined with the false calculation of depreciation based on MSRP instead of market price. This seems like it. If you paid $29,000 for something with a $36,500 MSRP because of a $7500 credit and a few years later it's worth $22,000, the amount of depreciation you're calculating by starting from MSRP and the amount that the buyer actually experienced are off by more than a factor of two. Meanwhile the credits caused more new sales than there would have been otherwise, which means more cars of that model available in the used market, and supply and demand is still a thing. It's not evidence that people don't want them, it's evidence that if you subsidize something the price comes down.
- bigiain 1y ago
  I wonder if COVID distorted the market enough to show up here? I have anecdotes of friends/family/coworkers who bought cars (or second cars for the household) to avoid public transport. And 2nd hand prices for cars gere (Australia) went batshit insane for a while during and as we chose to pretend that COVID was over - and those artificially inflated prices are mostly over now.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - harvey9 1y ago
    Not just the extra demand from people avoiding public transport but supply chain disruption caused by COVID affected the supply of new cars (and spare parts), so people who wanted a new car were now considering new-ish cars.
  - refactor_master 1y ago
    I have colleagues who bought new EVs and made money selling them one year later, because the market was so wild back then. For a while you could still add some deductions here, some credit there, sell an old car and “girl math” your way to a “free car”. Now people are surprised pikachu when the bubble has burst.
ricardobeat 1y ago
Oh, you're in for a surprise. An ID.7, the updated Model 3, Ford Explorer/Capri, plus all the ones you don't have in the US - Nio, Zeekr, BYD, Renault, Skoda, Volvo, Cupra - are significantly better than the EVs of five years ago.
- otterley 1y ago
  In what way? Specifically, in what way compared to a Tesla from 5 years ago? (Most other makes were not great 5 years ago.)
  - benjiro 1y ago
    Not the person you asked the question but i can answer this partially. I see from the EV my parents bought, they got for 22k euro, a car that does 240km on paper. Now a few years later, you can buy a BYD for 26k, that does 450km (ext version) on paper. That same BYD is WAY more fancy, tech gadgets etc... But that is comparing a lower market segment where this effect is stronger. On the higher end market, where the Tesla's used to dominate, we see less movement as those cars already came with tons of tech, and large batteries. Thing is, i am still not buying a EV despite them being better. The same arguments we had with EV disadvantages is still present today. I rather buy a second hand gasoline engine simply because of the convenience of the default 600 a 700km range on most vehicles, the 5 minute tank job, the lack of charging in the city, the prices despite the heavier depreciation in the second hand market are still worse. Ironically the gasoline car we bought 10 years ago, for 7.5k, still sells today for 8k in todays market (added 50k kms on the car). So even if we take a cut, the actual gasoline engine depreciation is strangely less strong. I track several gasoline cars where i had a interest in from years ago, same phenomenon. For some reason you expect gasoline cars to drop more in pricing because now in EU 17% of new cars sales are EVs and 36% are hybrid. So more gasoline cars on second hand market? No ... because people are also buying less cars because of the economy, more work from home etc. Resulting in actually less second hand cars as people hold on to their vehicles longer, waiting out this transition periode.
    - tw04 1y ago
brightball 1y ago
I can’t speak for the rest, but I believe in 2023 Tesla’s all moved from HW3 to HW4. I went from a 2020 Model 3 to a 2025 and the self driving experience is dramatically better. I’m one of those “I will never use FSD” people and I honestly love driving…but it’s so good I find myself using it constantly and just being awestruck.
vannevar 1y ago
>Are they really, though? Yes, if you look beyond progress within a specific model line. For instance, there is a marked difference between the range and towing capacity of a 2023 Chevrolet Silverado EV and the Ford Lightning. The Kia EV9 offered a substantial price advantage over existing 3-row EVs when it was introduced in 2023. I think you're right that actual pricing vs MSRP is probably the biggest factor, but real and rapid improvement in the products also contributes. I know I've put off buying an EV van because I know that better options will be coming within the next 18 months.
LeFantome 1y ago
Electric vehicles are improving at the rate that batteries are improving. That is faster than you may think. If you look just at Teslas, they go further and charge faster on smaller batteries (higher energy densities). These batteries cost less and will last far longer. And Tesla uses an older battery tech than Chinese companies use so, in fact, batteries have improved far more. And with sodium ion, there is about to be a massive improvement over the next few years.
Empact 1y ago
Personally I chose a new over a used Model Y this year because the Juniper release includes a new front bumper camera which could prove crucial in certain unlikely scenarios, and improve overall self-driving. It’s important enough that there are rumors they’ll offer the option of retrofitting it onto earlier versions: https://evannex.com/blogs/news/how-to-identify-your-model-y-hardware-and-determine-front-camera-retrofit-eligibility https://evannex.com/blogs/news/how-to-identify-your-model-y-... Also HW4 likely unlocks significant self-driving performance that the earlier hardware stack cannot accommodate, and will support features that are yet to be released for a longer period of time. Which is all to say: looks to me that the progress is significant.
- hvb2 1y ago
  > Which is all to say: looks to me that the progress is significant. Assuming you care about self driving enough. That's a big premium to pay for that alone. Fine if that works for you but I can't imagine that being a reason for many. Getting a new battery or newer design battery is probably much more of a driving factor
croes 1y ago
Does real progress matter? What about the perception of progress? Cars don’t need to be better, customers only need to think so. Just look at the smartphone market.
Workaccount2 1y ago
I'm looking at getting a used F-150 lightning, with the caveat that towing anything absolutely decimates your range. The new redesign coming out next year addresses this with a huge battery size increase.
alessandru 1y ago
tesla's cars literally just got remodeled what on earth do you mean bz4? toyota? yes they made their terrible impractical car actually practical in its latest form. the teslas are newish, with new parts and better sound suppression. they also improve marginally in efficiency every year. so the 2023 will have slightly better mechanicals than the 2021 etc. not too different ... they are very different. much improved. go read a review comparing them. how much different is today's durango from last year's or here lemme remind you durango hasn't been updated in 15 (count them!) FIFTEEN years. other zombie gas models are out there too.
apparent 1y ago
> the now-discontinued Bolt (which was the cheapest road-tripable EV) FYI the Bolt is back, at least for a limited run. [1] 1: https://news.gm.com/home.detail.html/Pages/news/us/en/2025/oct/1009-2027-Chevrolet-Bolt.html https://news.gm.com/home.detail.html/Pages/news/us/en/2025/o...

tartoran 1y ago

I'm sure for newer EV models makers cut down on production costs but they may also cut down on quality as well.

nostrademons 1y ago

Presumably you’re in the US, given the models you list. Don’t look there, because the best EVs are not available in the U.S. because of trade barriers. Look at what BYD and Toyota are doing in China.

fnordpiglet 1y ago
How does that impact depreciation in the US?
- nostrademons 1y ago
  The article here is about rental car fleets, and explicitly states that consumers (and particularly Teslas) are not seeing the same depreciation. Rental car fleets often buy EVs that are available on the global market (eg Kia or Hyundai models) and sell back into that global market.
meindnoch 1y ago
Ok, I'll bite: what are BYD and Toyota doing in China?
- SapporoChris 1y ago
  https://insideevs.com/news/758625/byd-megawatt-charging-demo-china/ https://insideevs.com/news/758625/byd-megawatt-charging-demo... https://time.com/collections/best-inventions-2025/7318540/byd-seagull/ https://time.com/collections/best-inventions-2025/7318540/by... https://www.electrive.com/2025/06/02/byd-expands-megawatt-charging-for-cars-in-china/ https://www.electrive.com/2025/06/02/byd-expands-megawatt-ch... https://thenextavenue.com/2025/07/28/how-byds-latest-innovations-are-shaping-the-future-of-electric-vehicles/ https://thenextavenue.com/2025/07/28/how-byds-latest-innovat... And that's just some low hanging fruit.

AnthonyMouse 1y ago

> No, the real problem is that the true market-clearing price for most of these vehicles was $7500-$10000 less than MSRP (which was set knowing the regulatory environment), combined with the false calculation of depreciation based on MSRP instead of market price. This seems like it. If you paid $29,000 for something with a $36,500 MSRP because of a $7500 credit and a few years later it's worth $22,000, the amount of depreciation you're calculating by starting from MSRP and the amount that the buyer actually experienced are off by more than a factor of two. Meanwhile the credits caused more new sales than there would have been otherwise, which means more cars of that model available in the used market, and supply and demand is still a thing. It's not evidence that people don't want them, it's evidence that if you subsidize something the price comes down.

bigiain 1y ago
I wonder if COVID distorted the market enough to show up here? I have anecdotes of friends/family/coworkers who bought cars (or second cars for the household) to avoid public transport. And 2nd hand prices for cars gere (Australia) went batshit insane for a while during and as we chose to pretend that COVID was over - and those artificially inflated prices are mostly over now.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- harvey9 1y ago
  Not just the extra demand from people avoiding public transport but supply chain disruption caused by COVID affected the supply of new cars (and spare parts), so people who wanted a new car were now considering new-ish cars.
- refactor_master 1y ago
  I have colleagues who bought new EVs and made money selling them one year later, because the market was so wild back then. For a while you could still add some deductions here, some credit there, sell an old car and “girl math” your way to a “free car”. Now people are surprised pikachu when the bubble has burst.

ricardobeat 1y ago

Oh, you're in for a surprise. An ID.7, the updated Model 3, Ford Explorer/Capri, plus all the ones you don't have in the US - Nio, Zeekr, BYD, Renault, Skoda, Volvo, Cupra - are significantly better than the EVs of five years ago.

otterley 1y ago
In what way? Specifically, in what way compared to a Tesla from 5 years ago? (Most other makes were not great 5 years ago.)
- benjiro 1y ago
  Not the person you asked the question but i can answer this partially. I see from the EV my parents bought, they got for 22k euro, a car that does 240km on paper. Now a few years later, you can buy a BYD for 26k, that does 450km (ext version) on paper. That same BYD is WAY more fancy, tech gadgets etc... But that is comparing a lower market segment where this effect is stronger. On the higher end market, where the Tesla's used to dominate, we see less movement as those cars already came with tons of tech, and large batteries. Thing is, i am still not buying a EV despite them being better. The same arguments we had with EV disadvantages is still present today. I rather buy a second hand gasoline engine simply because of the convenience of the default 600 a 700km range on most vehicles, the 5 minute tank job, the lack of charging in the city, the prices despite the heavier depreciation in the second hand market are still worse. Ironically the gasoline car we bought 10 years ago, for 7.5k, still sells today for 8k in todays market (added 50k kms on the car). So even if we take a cut, the actual gasoline engine depreciation is strangely less strong. I track several gasoline cars where i had a interest in from years ago, same phenomenon. For some reason you expect gasoline cars to drop more in pricing because now in EU 17% of new cars sales are EVs and 36% are hybrid. So more gasoline cars on second hand market? No ... because people are also buying less cars because of the economy, more work from home etc. Resulting in actually less second hand cars as people hold on to their vehicles longer, waiting out this transition periode.
  - tw04 1y ago

brightball 1y ago

I can’t speak for the rest, but I believe in 2023 Tesla’s all moved from HW3 to HW4. I went from a 2020 Model 3 to a 2025 and the self driving experience is dramatically better. I’m one of those “I will never use FSD” people and I honestly love driving…but it’s so good I find myself using it constantly and just being awestruck.

vannevar 1y ago

>Are they really, though? Yes, if you look beyond progress within a specific model line. For instance, there is a marked difference between the range and towing capacity of a 2023 Chevrolet Silverado EV and the Ford Lightning. The Kia EV9 offered a substantial price advantage over existing 3-row EVs when it was introduced in 2023. I think you're right that actual pricing vs MSRP is probably the biggest factor, but real and rapid improvement in the products also contributes. I know I've put off buying an EV van because I know that better options will be coming within the next 18 months.

LeFantome 1y ago

Electric vehicles are improving at the rate that batteries are improving. That is faster than you may think. If you look just at Teslas, they go further and charge faster on smaller batteries (higher energy densities). These batteries cost less and will last far longer. And Tesla uses an older battery tech than Chinese companies use so, in fact, batteries have improved far more. And with sodium ion, there is about to be a massive improvement over the next few years.

Empact 1y ago

Personally I chose a new over a used Model Y this year because the Juniper release includes a new front bumper camera which could prove crucial in certain unlikely scenarios, and improve overall self-driving. It’s important enough that there are rumors they’ll offer the option of retrofitting it onto earlier versions: https://evannex.com/blogs/news/how-to-identify-your-model-y-hardware-and-determine-front-camera-retrofit-eligibility https://evannex.com/blogs/news/how-to-identify-your-model-y-... Also HW4 likely unlocks significant self-driving performance that the earlier hardware stack cannot accommodate, and will support features that are yet to be released for a longer period of time. Which is all to say: looks to me that the progress is significant.

hvb2 1y ago
> Which is all to say: looks to me that the progress is significant. Assuming you care about self driving enough. That's a big premium to pay for that alone. Fine if that works for you but I can't imagine that being a reason for many. Getting a new battery or newer design battery is probably much more of a driving factor

croes 1y ago

Does real progress matter? What about the perception of progress? Cars don’t need to be better, customers only need to think so. Just look at the smartphone market.

Workaccount2 1y ago

I'm looking at getting a used F-150 lightning, with the caveat that towing anything absolutely decimates your range. The new redesign coming out next year addresses this with a huge battery size increase.

alessandru 1y ago

tesla's cars literally just got remodeled what on earth do you mean bz4? toyota? yes they made their terrible impractical car actually practical in its latest form. the teslas are newish, with new parts and better sound suppression. they also improve marginally in efficiency every year. so the 2023 will have slightly better mechanicals than the 2021 etc. not too different ... they are very different. much improved. go read a review comparing them. how much different is today's durango from last year's or here lemme remind you durango hasn't been updated in 15 (count them!) FIFTEEN years. other zombie gas models are out there too.

apparent 1y ago

> the now-discontinued Bolt (which was the cheapest road-tripable EV) FYI the Bolt is back, at least for a limited run. [1] 1: https://news.gm.com/home.detail.html/Pages/news/us/en/2025/oct/1009-2027-Chevrolet-Bolt.html https://news.gm.com/home.detail.html/Pages/news/us/en/2025/o...