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> and get something way better. The last part of OP's statement is the key. In a field that's rapidly advancing technologically, used prices are depressed beca

> and get something way better. The last part of OP's statement is the key. In a field that's rapidly advancing technologically, used prices are depressed because the new product is that much better than the used product. Think back to the early smartphone days - every year phones multiplied in performance, in screen resolution, etc. In that environment a used item is less attractive because you feel like you're missing out on features/capability. This keeps used prices down. Nowadays used smartphones are more competitive because the rate of advancement (that buyers care about at least) has slowed. For example there's another post later in this thread that points out that the Nissan Leaf has been the same price forever - except the current-gen Leaf has literally double the range of the last one. Effects like this depress used prices.

PunchyHamster 1y ago
> The last part of OP's statement is the key. In a field that's rapidly advancing technologically, used prices are depressed because the new product is that much better than the used product. And 2 years old EV is not twice as bad as current one > For example there's another post later in this thread that points out that the Nissan Leaf has been the same price forever - except the current-gen Leaf has literally double the range of the last one. Effects like this depress used prices. The previous gen is 8 years old. It took 8 years to "double" the quality, not 2
- potatolicious 1y ago
  Listen, I'm literally just describing basic market dynamics here - my post is not intended as an endorsement of plainly observable phenomena. The depreciation/utility curve has always been aggressive no matter what product you're buying. Is a 2 year-old ICE car twice as bad as a new one? Is a 2 year-old TV? Clearly not, yet they are all worth that in the open market. For EVs the depreciation curve is especially aggressive because of perceived advancements. Are the advancements worth buying new? I dunno! You tell me - but this is clearly being reflected in the market. From a strict utilitarian standpoint, optimizing your depreciation/utility function should mean you're buying almost every single thing used. But yet lots of people don't do that. Humans are empirically not very good utilitarians!
  - hcknwscommenter 1y ago
    >For EVs the depreciation curve is especially aggressive because of perceived advancements. And many comments disagree with this statement. There are few perceived advancements. Used EVs are not trusted, particularly because the used battery fear.
- jansper39 1y ago
  Range though is only one aspect to take into account when quantifying the "quality".
- Terr_ 1y ago
  > And 2 years old EV is not twice as bad as current one The new-vs-used price difference in equipment comes from multiple factors, of which "better features" is one part. Consider what would happen if you gave someone this choice: 1. Keep your 10-year-old car. (No major upgrades from stock.) 2. Pay $X to trade it for its identical factory-sibling which was made the same day but was stored in a timeless stasis-bubble until today, so that it still has its original new-car smell. I can't imagine anyone saying: "Well, there are zero new features, so I'll swap them for $0." P.S.: The issues are even more obvious if the person is choosing between buying someone else's 10-year-old car versus paying an extra premium for the time-warp one, because there's uncertainty about the first vehicle's history and maintenance.
  - apelapan 1y ago
    Yeah, because a car has tens of thousands of parts that age with both time and usage. The core drivetrain is just a tiny bit of that. Everything is falling apart and that makes and old, used car... Used and old. Now queue the people who show up to say they haven't changed a tire or wind screen wiper blade on their 2012 Model S/Camry and can't perceive a single difference to when they were new from factory.
numpad0 1y ago
> ... because the new product is that much better than the used product. This starts reading like a hallucination after a while. How much in a Tesla had changed over past 5 years or so that makes 2020 model completely obsolete and unappealing relative to 2025 model? The range hasn't doubled, internal volume hasn't, acceleration or braking hasn't. They may have changed implementations under the hood, but none has been clearly communicated to potential customers, so they might as well be the exact same car. Meanwhile, 2020 Prius is that ugly one with quirky dashboard, and 2025 is that mustard yellow thing with the HUD-like dash. So what in an EV is so "rapidly advancing technologically" so much that it perfectly rule out much more simpler explanation that people just aren't interested in EVs, in favor of more hand-wavy one that the newer EVs are just constantly enormously more appealing to the customers that older ones tend to lose the appeal faster?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- verdverm 1y ago
  Look to BYD instead of Tesla if you want to find rapid advancement. Tesla has not been well managed for a few years, BYD recently passed them to become the biggest EV seller I bought Hyundai, which charges 2x faster than the Tesla Another thing to consider is the Tesla likely makes up the majority of the used EV inventory, and Tesla has become a toxic brand
  - Sohcahtoa82 1y ago
    > I bought Hyundai, which charges 2x faster than the Tesla Your Hyundai charges at 500 kW?
    - verdverm 1y ago
      There's more to charging than peak kW, notably sustained throughput The amount of range you can put into the EV, per unit of time, is a better metric. https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-charging.html https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-charging.html Hyundai has been on the 800V arch for a while with their E-GMP platform, Tesla's first entry is the 25th spot.
eikenberry 1y ago
What part of EVs is "rapidly advancing technologically"? The battery is the only thing that comes to mind and they should be replaceable if that was the bottleneck. Self-driving is also advancing, but that hasn't stabilized as a feature yet. EV motors have been around for a long time and the rest seems like general car stuff that would be common with ICEs. Following that logic it seems to come down to old batteries which aren't as good both due to technological advances and battery aging. If so, why aren't used dealers just including a battery swap in the price?
- jacobr1 1y ago
  > If so, why aren't used dealers just including a battery swap in the price? I think that is the main thing that needs to be figured out. I suspect the problem is that you need to get OEM battery replacements for older model cars and those aren't yet readily available or cheap. We are going to need aftermarket batteries to drive price competition in the market. The current car manufacturers aren't incentivised to support a secondary market when they are still focused on primary sales. Also not in the ICE market there is much more ability to scale capacity. The supply chain constraints for EVs, and batteries are much tighter, though that keeps getting better.
  - jansper39 1y ago
    Battery swaps are never going to be a thing long term, even with Nio rolling it out in areas. It adds huge amounts of weight and complexity. You have to build electrical and coolant connectors which can handle large amounts of connects and disconnects, in areas that get mucky and interact with rain, salt, snow and ice. You have to build a chassis strong enough to take an impact but also support the additional weight and space that a removable battery takes up - think of how much bigger phones with removable batteries. I have done 900 mile road trips in EVs with 150Kw charging (low by standards of newer EVs) and charging has been a complete non problem. In fact I have more problems with plugging my car in, going to the toilet and coming back finding that I've put more power into the car than I wanted. Batteries are lasting 200k+ miles with 85-90% original capacity in so longevity is not a problem and charging is becoming a solved problems in an increasingly large portion of the world too.

PunchyHamster 1y ago

> The last part of OP's statement is the key. In a field that's rapidly advancing technologically, used prices are depressed because the new product is that much better than the used product. And 2 years old EV is not twice as bad as current one > For example there's another post later in this thread that points out that the Nissan Leaf has been the same price forever - except the current-gen Leaf has literally double the range of the last one. Effects like this depress used prices. The previous gen is 8 years old. It took 8 years to "double" the quality, not 2

potatolicious 1y ago
Listen, I'm literally just describing basic market dynamics here - my post is not intended as an endorsement of plainly observable phenomena. The depreciation/utility curve has always been aggressive no matter what product you're buying. Is a 2 year-old ICE car twice as bad as a new one? Is a 2 year-old TV? Clearly not, yet they are all worth that in the open market. For EVs the depreciation curve is especially aggressive because of perceived advancements. Are the advancements worth buying new? I dunno! You tell me - but this is clearly being reflected in the market. From a strict utilitarian standpoint, optimizing your depreciation/utility function should mean you're buying almost every single thing used. But yet lots of people don't do that. Humans are empirically not very good utilitarians!
- hcknwscommenter 1y ago
  >For EVs the depreciation curve is especially aggressive because of perceived advancements. And many comments disagree with this statement. There are few perceived advancements. Used EVs are not trusted, particularly because the used battery fear.
jansper39 1y ago
Range though is only one aspect to take into account when quantifying the "quality".
Terr_ 1y ago
> And 2 years old EV is not twice as bad as current one The new-vs-used price difference in equipment comes from multiple factors, of which "better features" is one part. Consider what would happen if you gave someone this choice: 1. Keep your 10-year-old car. (No major upgrades from stock.) 2. Pay $X to trade it for its identical factory-sibling which was made the same day but was stored in a timeless stasis-bubble until today, so that it still has its original new-car smell. I can't imagine anyone saying: "Well, there are zero new features, so I'll swap them for $0." P.S.: The issues are even more obvious if the person is choosing between buying someone else's 10-year-old car versus paying an extra premium for the time-warp one, because there's uncertainty about the first vehicle's history and maintenance.
- apelapan 1y ago
  Yeah, because a car has tens of thousands of parts that age with both time and usage. The core drivetrain is just a tiny bit of that. Everything is falling apart and that makes and old, used car... Used and old. Now queue the people who show up to say they haven't changed a tire or wind screen wiper blade on their 2012 Model S/Camry and can't perceive a single difference to when they were new from factory.

numpad0 1y ago

> ... because the new product is that much better than the used product. This starts reading like a hallucination after a while. How much in a Tesla had changed over past 5 years or so that makes 2020 model completely obsolete and unappealing relative to 2025 model? The range hasn't doubled, internal volume hasn't, acceleration or braking hasn't. They may have changed implementations under the hood, but none has been clearly communicated to potential customers, so they might as well be the exact same car. Meanwhile, 2020 Prius is that ugly one with quirky dashboard, and 2025 is that mustard yellow thing with the HUD-like dash. So what in an EV is so "rapidly advancing technologically" so much that it perfectly rule out much more simpler explanation that people just aren't interested in EVs, in favor of more hand-wavy one that the newer EVs are just constantly enormously more appealing to the customers that older ones tend to lose the appeal faster?

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
verdverm 1y ago
Look to BYD instead of Tesla if you want to find rapid advancement. Tesla has not been well managed for a few years, BYD recently passed them to become the biggest EV seller I bought Hyundai, which charges 2x faster than the Tesla Another thing to consider is the Tesla likely makes up the majority of the used EV inventory, and Tesla has become a toxic brand
- Sohcahtoa82 1y ago
  > I bought Hyundai, which charges 2x faster than the Tesla Your Hyundai charges at 500 kW?
  - verdverm 1y ago
    There's more to charging than peak kW, notably sustained throughput The amount of range you can put into the EV, per unit of time, is a better metric. https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-charging.html https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-charging.html Hyundai has been on the 800V arch for a while with their E-GMP platform, Tesla's first entry is the 25th spot.

eikenberry 1y ago

What part of EVs is "rapidly advancing technologically"? The battery is the only thing that comes to mind and they should be replaceable if that was the bottleneck. Self-driving is also advancing, but that hasn't stabilized as a feature yet. EV motors have been around for a long time and the rest seems like general car stuff that would be common with ICEs. Following that logic it seems to come down to old batteries which aren't as good both due to technological advances and battery aging. If so, why aren't used dealers just including a battery swap in the price?

jacobr1 1y ago
> If so, why aren't used dealers just including a battery swap in the price? I think that is the main thing that needs to be figured out. I suspect the problem is that you need to get OEM battery replacements for older model cars and those aren't yet readily available or cheap. We are going to need aftermarket batteries to drive price competition in the market. The current car manufacturers aren't incentivised to support a secondary market when they are still focused on primary sales. Also not in the ICE market there is much more ability to scale capacity. The supply chain constraints for EVs, and batteries are much tighter, though that keeps getting better.
- jansper39 1y ago
  Battery swaps are never going to be a thing long term, even with Nio rolling it out in areas. It adds huge amounts of weight and complexity. You have to build electrical and coolant connectors which can handle large amounts of connects and disconnects, in areas that get mucky and interact with rain, salt, snow and ice. You have to build a chassis strong enough to take an impact but also support the additional weight and space that a removable battery takes up - think of how much bigger phones with removable batteries. I have done 900 mile road trips in EVs with 150Kw charging (low by standards of newer EVs) and charging has been a complete non problem. In fact I have more problems with plugging my car in, going to the toilet and coming back finding that I've put more power into the car than I wanted. Batteries are lasting 200k+ miles with 85-90% original capacity in so longevity is not a problem and charging is becoming a solved problems in an increasingly large portion of the world too.