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No, you completely missed the point. The new model is still ~$30,000 but it has better range/charges faster/drives better. That doesn’t really happen as dramat

by dangus 1y ago

No, you completely missed the point. The new model is still ~$30,000 but it has better range/charges faster/drives better. That doesn’t really happen as dramatically with gasoline cars. The powertrain and driving experience of a 5 year old gas car isn’t noticeably different than a current one. If you buy a 5 year old EV you might get one that charges slow, doesn’t have a heat pump, has worse battery chemistry, battery health management, and the list goes on. Heck, the Leaf is a perfect example because you’re stuck with chademo fast charging charging instead of CCS or NACS. I wouldn’t touch one with a 9 foot pole unless I planned to exclusively charge at home. Also, don’t take my comment to mean that I think used EVs are a bad choice, many of them can work very well for many years and use cases as long as you are properly informed.

edbaskerville 1y ago
This argument seems right to me. Old ICE cars are basically the same as new ones. EVs are getting better quickly, so fast depreciation makes sense. I avoided a used Leaf for exactly the reason you cited...2.5 years ago, and have been very happy with a last-of-its-generation 2023 Chevy Bolt (~ $22K new after tax credit). But if you don't care about new features, e.g., really fast charging, a used Bolt (55kW max) is a great option!
- idiotsecant 1y ago
  >>Old ICE cars are basically the same as new ones. I'm not sure that's totally true. The rate of change might be lower, but new ICE vehicles have higher efficiency (directly correlating to longer EV range) and are safer, more comfortable, and quieter. I am definitely on the pro-EV side, nearly an evangelist I suppose, but ICE vehicles do improve.
  - seanmcdirmid 1y ago
    How are ICEs quieter than EVs? Are you talking about the artificial noise EVs put out at low speeds so they don't sneak up on people? ICEs have longer range, some of them are really fuel efficient, especially hybrids. But they drive relatively more poorly unless you opt for a sports car that is cramped and expensive. It isn't the worse thing in the world to drive an ICE, but it is noticeably less fun than driving an EV.
    - overfeed 1y ago
      > How are ICEs quieter than EVs? Are you talking about the artificial noise EVs put out at low speeds so they don't sneak up on people? I think your second sentence answers your first. Car noise = tire noise + motor noise. EVs have very low motor noise compared to IC. EVs also tend to have better cabin dampening on average, but that likely has to do with price-band consumer expectations, and not inherent to the method of propulsion.
      - seanmcdirmid 1y ago
        You know you can disable that. It might be against the law though, and it isn't the EVs that demand noise, it is the society that demands them not to be silent killers. Even Hybrids have to make this noise when they are running on their electric drive trains. But let's say ICEs were made as quiet, they would be demanded to make noise as well. Also, no one has done anything about tire noise yet, so at high speeds, EVs and ICEs are about the same.
      - platevoltage 1y ago
        EVs are also much heavier, which contributes to lower noise as well. You've got a massively heavy battery pack between you and the road.
    - dare944 1y ago
      > How are ICEs quieter than EVs? That wasn't the point being made. The point was that newer ICE cars are quieter than older models, and thus ICE vehicles have improved (at least to some degree) over the same period as EVs.
    - idiotsecant 1y ago
      None of the comparisons I made were between ICE and EV, They're between old ICE and new ICE.
mixmastamyk 1y ago
Indeed, and didn't even mention ~30% inflation over the last five years.
nwienert 1y ago
This isn’t what’s happening though. I see Tesla Highland models (<1 year old, current gen) selling at significantly larger depreciations than nearly new gas cars. This holds across other EV manufacturers.
- dangus 1y ago
  This makes a ton of sense considering the recently expired tax credit. The moment you drive an EV off the lot in September or earlier it’s worth $7,500 less than the normal depreciation. I think if we give the used market a few years without the tax credit it’ll start to look more normal.
  - nwienert 1y ago
    I think that only explains some of it, but definitely not all. The difference between gas models is massive. Look at Audi e trons for example which are regularly hitting 70% depreciation in 3 years with relatively low miles. I think it’s a lot of things: demand is weakening because people are seeing that the attempt to force them on us faltering so we don’t have to switch, trust in reliability is lower, trust in battery durability too. Also I think some of the myths of EVs advantages are being uncovered: the cost of batteries and tires takes a lot of the cost benefits away. EV charging stations are past 50% of gas station costs, when they used to be subsidized to be free. The complexity of battery, and the immensely complex heating and cooling systems means they aren’t as simple as many thought. There’s also environmental stuff - 2010s was peak climate change anxiety, you got a lot of social credit for an EV then, even more so because they were novel. The novelty factor and lack of cultural emphasis on environment both are degrading prices too.
    - labcomputer 1y ago
      e-Trons are definitely among the best deals right now in used EVs, but it's down to a confluence of factors specific to that car: 1. It had fairly good charging, but only so-so range. 250 miles seems to be a big psychological barrier for a lot of people and the e-Tron is on the wrong side of that line. 2. It's a luxury car and should be expected to have luxury car depreciation as a baseline 3. It's a luxury car with luxury car maintenance costs 4. It's a luxury car that had (maybe has) some reliability issues which incur luxury car repair costs 5. Audi had very good lease deals when they were new ("trunk money" was a common phrase) 6. Fuel economy is fairly bad when compared to anything other than an EV pickup All these combine to make it a used car that only appeals to a very specific buyer.
Marsymars 1y ago
> That doesn’t really happen as dramatically with gasoline cars. The powertrain and driving experience of a 5 year old gas car isn’t noticeably different than a current one. Depends. I recently went from a manual car to a mild hybrid with an eCVT. Feels pretty different to me.
- dangus 1y ago
  Hybrids with eCVTs existed 5-15 years ago. You just happened to not be driving one.
  - Marsymars 1y ago
    Er, yeah, but that’s kinda analagous to the situation with EVs - there’s a big difference going from a 2015 Nissan Leaf to a 2025 Models S - there’s not nearly as much of a difference going from a 2015 Models S to a 2025 Model S.

by dangus 1y ago

edbaskerville 1y ago

This argument seems right to me. Old ICE cars are basically the same as new ones. EVs are getting better quickly, so fast depreciation makes sense. I avoided a used Leaf for exactly the reason you cited...2.5 years ago, and have been very happy with a last-of-its-generation 2023 Chevy Bolt (~ $22K new after tax credit). But if you don't care about new features, e.g., really fast charging, a used Bolt (55kW max) is a great option!

idiotsecant 1y ago
>>Old ICE cars are basically the same as new ones. I'm not sure that's totally true. The rate of change might be lower, but new ICE vehicles have higher efficiency (directly correlating to longer EV range) and are safer, more comfortable, and quieter. I am definitely on the pro-EV side, nearly an evangelist I suppose, but ICE vehicles do improve.
- seanmcdirmid 1y ago
  How are ICEs quieter than EVs? Are you talking about the artificial noise EVs put out at low speeds so they don't sneak up on people? ICEs have longer range, some of them are really fuel efficient, especially hybrids. But they drive relatively more poorly unless you opt for a sports car that is cramped and expensive. It isn't the worse thing in the world to drive an ICE, but it is noticeably less fun than driving an EV.
  - overfeed 1y ago
    > How are ICEs quieter than EVs? Are you talking about the artificial noise EVs put out at low speeds so they don't sneak up on people? I think your second sentence answers your first. Car noise = tire noise + motor noise. EVs have very low motor noise compared to IC. EVs also tend to have better cabin dampening on average, but that likely has to do with price-band consumer expectations, and not inherent to the method of propulsion.
    - seanmcdirmid 1y ago
      You know you can disable that. It might be against the law though, and it isn't the EVs that demand noise, it is the society that demands them not to be silent killers. Even Hybrids have to make this noise when they are running on their electric drive trains. But let's say ICEs were made as quiet, they would be demanded to make noise as well. Also, no one has done anything about tire noise yet, so at high speeds, EVs and ICEs are about the same.
    - platevoltage 1y ago
      EVs are also much heavier, which contributes to lower noise as well. You've got a massively heavy battery pack between you and the road.
  - dare944 1y ago
    > How are ICEs quieter than EVs? That wasn't the point being made. The point was that newer ICE cars are quieter than older models, and thus ICE vehicles have improved (at least to some degree) over the same period as EVs.
  - idiotsecant 1y ago
    None of the comparisons I made were between ICE and EV, They're between old ICE and new ICE.

mixmastamyk 1y ago

Indeed, and didn't even mention ~30% inflation over the last five years.

nwienert 1y ago

This isn’t what’s happening though. I see Tesla Highland models (<1 year old, current gen) selling at significantly larger depreciations than nearly new gas cars. This holds across other EV manufacturers.

dangus 1y ago
This makes a ton of sense considering the recently expired tax credit. The moment you drive an EV off the lot in September or earlier it’s worth $7,500 less than the normal depreciation. I think if we give the used market a few years without the tax credit it’ll start to look more normal.
- nwienert 1y ago
  I think that only explains some of it, but definitely not all. The difference between gas models is massive. Look at Audi e trons for example which are regularly hitting 70% depreciation in 3 years with relatively low miles. I think it’s a lot of things: demand is weakening because people are seeing that the attempt to force them on us faltering so we don’t have to switch, trust in reliability is lower, trust in battery durability too. Also I think some of the myths of EVs advantages are being uncovered: the cost of batteries and tires takes a lot of the cost benefits away. EV charging stations are past 50% of gas station costs, when they used to be subsidized to be free. The complexity of battery, and the immensely complex heating and cooling systems means they aren’t as simple as many thought. There’s also environmental stuff - 2010s was peak climate change anxiety, you got a lot of social credit for an EV then, even more so because they were novel. The novelty factor and lack of cultural emphasis on environment both are degrading prices too.
  - labcomputer 1y ago
    e-Trons are definitely among the best deals right now in used EVs, but it's down to a confluence of factors specific to that car: 1. It had fairly good charging, but only so-so range. 250 miles seems to be a big psychological barrier for a lot of people and the e-Tron is on the wrong side of that line. 2. It's a luxury car and should be expected to have luxury car depreciation as a baseline 3. It's a luxury car with luxury car maintenance costs 4. It's a luxury car that had (maybe has) some reliability issues which incur luxury car repair costs 5. Audi had very good lease deals when they were new ("trunk money" was a common phrase) 6. Fuel economy is fairly bad when compared to anything other than an EV pickup All these combine to make it a used car that only appeals to a very specific buyer.

Marsymars 1y ago

> That doesn’t really happen as dramatically with gasoline cars. The powertrain and driving experience of a 5 year old gas car isn’t noticeably different than a current one. Depends. I recently went from a manual car to a mild hybrid with an eCVT. Feels pretty different to me.

dangus 1y ago
Hybrids with eCVTs existed 5-15 years ago. You just happened to not be driving one.
- Marsymars 1y ago
  Er, yeah, but that’s kinda analagous to the situation with EVs - there’s a big difference going from a 2015 Nissan Leaf to a 2025 Models S - there’s not nearly as much of a difference going from a 2015 Models S to a 2025 Model S.