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The idea that there are straightforward “female” and “male” traits should seem quite shaky to anyone who is even a little bit into humanities. The problem is th

The idea that there are straightforward “female” and “male” traits should seem quite shaky to anyone who is even a little bit into humanities. The problem is that both sides of the equation are constructs of the mind, both the thing we would like to measure, and the measure itself. Fighting journalistic simplification with journalistic simplification is not the mentioned “pursuit of truth”. So before arguing whether pink is “for silly girls”, or “proud female colour”, it would be great to remember that its association with gender basically only started yesterday. Even if we assume that there are “standard men” and “standard women”, there's another problem: office politics occurring in country M in century N is most certainly the product of specific culture, and not some cavemen rituals. Problems of Patrick or Patricia Bateman are probably quite alien to a lot of people in the world. The irony is that the image of “good old days” is itself based on modern day stereotypes. So-called progressive propaganda was quite focused on the caricature of concentrated Bad Masculine Man, and now, freshly painted, it is presented as a positive example (because public is familiar with it, and making public think is too hard).

DaveZale 1y ago
thank you. I almost posted earlier but stopped myself, thinking, this discussion could be very divisive, you did it better. I just read a book about civic action, where a comment was made that suggested not thinking about left and right, but of top and bottom... but even that is dualistic.
- fuzzfactor 1y ago
  >both sides of the equation are constructs of the mind, More than dualistic when so much of the time it is constructs of other peoples' minds on top of that.
janwl 1y ago
> The problem is that both sides of the equation are constructs of the mind No, they are not. And when we take into account that they are not, the whole argument breaks down.
- techblueberry 1y ago
  Are you going to make an argument here? This isn’t aggressive or empathetic. Trying to mask your gender????
  - K0balt 1y ago
    If we are just going to be serious here, the morphology of females differs significantly from males, and there are well documented behavioral biases that have been shown to predate or even defy socialization time and time again. Just because some people -want- men and women to be interchangeable in all respects does not mean that they are, or can be. Women bring a critical set of biases and skills to the human condition, as do men. There is technologically no escape from sex determined role differentiation at a statistically significant scale without dooming humanity to population decline and rapid extinction. Even if it were possible, is it wise to ignore the wisdom of millions of years of evolution, hard won by countless suffering and deaths? Should we blindly lunge toward an ill tested notion of “equality”, ignoring the sociopolitical and cultural risks we now are bearing witness to, undercutting the very ideals of self determination and individual freedom and allowing an easy entry point for totalitarian aspirations? The simple, inescapable truth is that statistically, men hold the monopoly of coercive force on the planet, and all rights that women enjoy are therefore in effect granted by men. We don’t have to look far to see what happens in societies where this kind of affordance is considered unwise. Whether one wishes it were so or not, the overstepping of women towards the erosion of reason in deference to compassion, while admirable in some measures, is propelling us towards a reaction by men and women alike that erodes the plausibility of the hypothesis that women should be trusted with power in hierarchical society. I’d like to add that I am not making a personal value judgment here. I am a man, but life has shown me the great value that women can bring to nearly every endeavor both directly and indirectly. I do not suppose that the role of men is somehow more important or significant in creating a just and prosperous society, but that rather the roles of women and men are of equal importance and value, specifically because those roles tend to be distinct and irreplaceable.
    - ogurechny 1y ago
techblueberry 1y ago
Yeah, it’s very strange to me that the starting premise of some of these articles seems to be masculinity is UFC and femininity is The Real Housewives. Most men I know, and certainly over a certain age don’t want to work for a frat boy culture. I’ve worked for plenty of men who exhibit ruinous empathy and plenty of women with excess ambition, and I’d say the dichotomy of ambition - empathy is wrong. The best leaders of either gender have both. I do also love how she glossed over her example of how men were better at reconciliation and less likely to cancel culture because men were conditioned for war in which “ The point of war is to settle disputes between two tribes, but it works only if peace is restored after the dispute is settled. Men therefore developed methods for reconciling with opponents and learning to live in peace with people they were fighting yesterday.” Like completely glossing over the fact that first they felt they had to kill thousands of people? And do you think it was the people who fundamentally differed in ideology that reconciled with? Then like: “Men order each other around, but women can only suggest and persuade” Almost every leader eventually learns that leading through influence is much more powerful than leading through authority, gender be damned. But it’s also just got more holes than Swiss cheese. Sure I love classical liberalism and the ideas of rationality, but per some of her own arguments, this isn’t the natural state of things. Most men in most cultures just wanted to club people over the head to win arguments, not engage in rationality. Most kings just wanted their way, not to deal with an objective legal system. And per her own arguments, are men Socrates or Bluto?
DuperPower 1y ago
[flagged]
- techblueberry 1y ago
  Apparently you’ve never heard of pegging. And who is dismissing easily? I’ll even give you that difference, but tying it to half the things she said in this article is probably not possible.
arnoooooo 1y ago
If you look at things like physical strength for instance, the difference is quite marked. That some females can be stronger than some men does not change the fundamental distribution. This is not a construct of the mind. If male and female abilities differ, it should follow that our social expectations differ.
- happymellon 1y ago
  So all of Donald Trumps arguments are emotional, and illogical. Are you saying he is actually a woman?
  - arnoooooo 1y ago
    I did not say anything about logic or emotions. I'm also not sure I agree with your characterization of Donald Trump. For the sake of argument, let's say I had mentioned logic and emotions and you were right about Trump. He would just be an example of an outlier (which by the way he obviously is, although not in the way you imply), not an argument against my point which is that male and female distributions are quite distinct for some traits, with little overlap.
- bjourne 1y ago
  Would you assume the same thing about men? That a muscular man has different "societal expectations" etc. than a skinny man?
  - arnoooooo 1y ago
    If by muscular and skinny you mean that one has more capacity for developping strength, then sure, why not ? Should our expectations not be based on ability ?
    - bjourne 1y ago
      No, I meant exactly what you wrote. You say that since physical strength of men and women differ their cognitive abilities should differ too. The physical strength of muscular and skinny men differ too, hence, according to your argument, their cognitive abilities should differ too.
marcusverus 1y ago
> The idea that there are straightforward “female” and “male” traits should seem quite shaky to anyone who is even a little bit into humanities. Straightforward male and female traits/roles pervade the animal kingdom, including the other great apes. Honestly, even entertaining this idea is female-coded. In a male space, the denial of so obvious a reality would be dismissed out of hand as obviously retarded.
- bigyabai 1y ago
  Would it be feminine of me to ask you for a citation?
  - marcusverus 1y ago
    Only if you did so in a passive-aggressive way ;) From the relevant Wikis: Chimps: At the core of social structures are males, which patrol the territory, protect group members, and search for food. Males remain in their natal communities, while females generally emigrate at adolescence. Males in a community are more likely to be related to one another than females are to each other. Among males, there is generally a dominance hierarchy, and males are dominant over females. Orangutans: One to several resident female home ranges are encompassed within the home range of a resident male, who is their main mating partner.[50][51] Interactions between adult females range from friendly to avoidance to antagonistic.[52] Flanged males are often hostile to both other flanged males and unflanged males, while unflanged males are more peaceful towards each other.[53] Orangutans disperse and establish their home ranges by age 11. Females tend to live near their birth range, while males disperse farther but may still visit their birth range within their larger home range.[51][54] They enter a transient phase, which lasts until a male can challenge and displace a dominant, resident male from his home range. Gorillas: Gorillas live in groups called troops. Troops tend to be made of one adult male or silverback, with a harem of multiple adult females and their offspring.[58][59][60] However, multiple-male troops also exist.[59] A silverback is typically more than 12 years of age, and is named for the distinctive patch of silver hair on his back, which comes with maturity. Silverbacks have large canine teeth that also come with maturity. Both males and females tend to emigrate from their natal groups. For mountain gorillas, females disperse from their natal troops more than males.[58][61] Mountain gorillas and western lowland gorillas also commonly transfer to second new groups.[58] Mature males also tend to leave their groups and establish their own troops by attracting emigrating females. However, male mountain gorillas sometimes stay in their natal troops and become subordinate to the silverback.
vapg1974 1y ago
The idea that there are straightforward “female” and “male” traits should seem quite shaky to anyone who is even a little bit into humanities... "Humanities", that alone makes your whole argument invalid. As if brain configuation, that staemming from genetics and hormone levels, had no influence in how the sexes perceive world and social clues and behave according to those perceptions. Not mentioning the inherent physical differences which also influence how they differently percieve the world and behave.
- ogurechny 1y ago
  As many others, you believe that by talking about certain things you're directly touching “real”, “material”, “physical” world. So-called humanities — barely even taught to so-called educated public — could help you see how that specific creed of scientism spread in last two centuries, how it was tied to mass education and journalism, and not actually to science, and what made you stick to it (no one told you that the outside world exists). You chose comfortable ignorance. Being a proud servant of the status quo is neither fresh, nor smart, nor scientific. Illiterate savages worshipped their idols in the exact same fashion.

DaveZale 1y ago

thank you. I almost posted earlier but stopped myself, thinking, this discussion could be very divisive, you did it better. I just read a book about civic action, where a comment was made that suggested not thinking about left and right, but of top and bottom... but even that is dualistic.

fuzzfactor 1y ago
>both sides of the equation are constructs of the mind, More than dualistic when so much of the time it is constructs of other peoples' minds on top of that.

janwl 1y ago

> The problem is that both sides of the equation are constructs of the mind No, they are not. And when we take into account that they are not, the whole argument breaks down.

techblueberry 1y ago
Are you going to make an argument here? This isn’t aggressive or empathetic. Trying to mask your gender????
- K0balt 1y ago
  If we are just going to be serious here, the morphology of females differs significantly from males, and there are well documented behavioral biases that have been shown to predate or even defy socialization time and time again. Just because some people -want- men and women to be interchangeable in all respects does not mean that they are, or can be. Women bring a critical set of biases and skills to the human condition, as do men. There is technologically no escape from sex determined role differentiation at a statistically significant scale without dooming humanity to population decline and rapid extinction. Even if it were possible, is it wise to ignore the wisdom of millions of years of evolution, hard won by countless suffering and deaths? Should we blindly lunge toward an ill tested notion of “equality”, ignoring the sociopolitical and cultural risks we now are bearing witness to, undercutting the very ideals of self determination and individual freedom and allowing an easy entry point for totalitarian aspirations? The simple, inescapable truth is that statistically, men hold the monopoly of coercive force on the planet, and all rights that women enjoy are therefore in effect granted by men. We don’t have to look far to see what happens in societies where this kind of affordance is considered unwise. Whether one wishes it were so or not, the overstepping of women towards the erosion of reason in deference to compassion, while admirable in some measures, is propelling us towards a reaction by men and women alike that erodes the plausibility of the hypothesis that women should be trusted with power in hierarchical society. I’d like to add that I am not making a personal value judgment here. I am a man, but life has shown me the great value that women can bring to nearly every endeavor both directly and indirectly. I do not suppose that the role of men is somehow more important or significant in creating a just and prosperous society, but that rather the roles of women and men are of equal importance and value, specifically because those roles tend to be distinct and irreplaceable.
  - ogurechny 1y ago

techblueberry 1y ago

Yeah, it’s very strange to me that the starting premise of some of these articles seems to be masculinity is UFC and femininity is The Real Housewives. Most men I know, and certainly over a certain age don’t want to work for a frat boy culture. I’ve worked for plenty of men who exhibit ruinous empathy and plenty of women with excess ambition, and I’d say the dichotomy of ambition - empathy is wrong. The best leaders of either gender have both. I do also love how she glossed over her example of how men were better at reconciliation and less likely to cancel culture because men were conditioned for war in which “ The point of war is to settle disputes between two tribes, but it works only if peace is restored after the dispute is settled. Men therefore developed methods for reconciling with opponents and learning to live in peace with people they were fighting yesterday.” Like completely glossing over the fact that first they felt they had to kill thousands of people? And do you think it was the people who fundamentally differed in ideology that reconciled with? Then like: “Men order each other around, but women can only suggest and persuade” Almost every leader eventually learns that leading through influence is much more powerful than leading through authority, gender be damned. But it’s also just got more holes than Swiss cheese. Sure I love classical liberalism and the ideas of rationality, but per some of her own arguments, this isn’t the natural state of things. Most men in most cultures just wanted to club people over the head to win arguments, not engage in rationality. Most kings just wanted their way, not to deal with an objective legal system. And per her own arguments, are men Socrates or Bluto?

DuperPower 1y ago

[flagged]

techblueberry 1y ago
Apparently you’ve never heard of pegging. And who is dismissing easily? I’ll even give you that difference, but tying it to half the things she said in this article is probably not possible.

arnoooooo 1y ago

If you look at things like physical strength for instance, the difference is quite marked. That some females can be stronger than some men does not change the fundamental distribution. This is not a construct of the mind. If male and female abilities differ, it should follow that our social expectations differ.

happymellon 1y ago
So all of Donald Trumps arguments are emotional, and illogical. Are you saying he is actually a woman?
- arnoooooo 1y ago
  I did not say anything about logic or emotions. I'm also not sure I agree with your characterization of Donald Trump. For the sake of argument, let's say I had mentioned logic and emotions and you were right about Trump. He would just be an example of an outlier (which by the way he obviously is, although not in the way you imply), not an argument against my point which is that male and female distributions are quite distinct for some traits, with little overlap.
bjourne 1y ago
Would you assume the same thing about men? That a muscular man has different "societal expectations" etc. than a skinny man?
- arnoooooo 1y ago
  If by muscular and skinny you mean that one has more capacity for developping strength, then sure, why not ? Should our expectations not be based on ability ?
  - bjourne 1y ago
    No, I meant exactly what you wrote. You say that since physical strength of men and women differ their cognitive abilities should differ too. The physical strength of muscular and skinny men differ too, hence, according to your argument, their cognitive abilities should differ too.

marcusverus 1y ago

> The idea that there are straightforward “female” and “male” traits should seem quite shaky to anyone who is even a little bit into humanities. Straightforward male and female traits/roles pervade the animal kingdom, including the other great apes. Honestly, even entertaining this idea is female-coded. In a male space, the denial of so obvious a reality would be dismissed out of hand as obviously retarded.

bigyabai 1y ago
Would it be feminine of me to ask you for a citation?
- marcusverus 1y ago
  Only if you did so in a passive-aggressive way ;) From the relevant Wikis: Chimps: At the core of social structures are males, which patrol the territory, protect group members, and search for food. Males remain in their natal communities, while females generally emigrate at adolescence. Males in a community are more likely to be related to one another than females are to each other. Among males, there is generally a dominance hierarchy, and males are dominant over females. Orangutans: One to several resident female home ranges are encompassed within the home range of a resident male, who is their main mating partner.[50][51] Interactions between adult females range from friendly to avoidance to antagonistic.[52] Flanged males are often hostile to both other flanged males and unflanged males, while unflanged males are more peaceful towards each other.[53] Orangutans disperse and establish their home ranges by age 11. Females tend to live near their birth range, while males disperse farther but may still visit their birth range within their larger home range.[51][54] They enter a transient phase, which lasts until a male can challenge and displace a dominant, resident male from his home range. Gorillas: Gorillas live in groups called troops. Troops tend to be made of one adult male or silverback, with a harem of multiple adult females and their offspring.[58][59][60] However, multiple-male troops also exist.[59] A silverback is typically more than 12 years of age, and is named for the distinctive patch of silver hair on his back, which comes with maturity. Silverbacks have large canine teeth that also come with maturity. Both males and females tend to emigrate from their natal groups. For mountain gorillas, females disperse from their natal troops more than males.[58][61] Mountain gorillas and western lowland gorillas also commonly transfer to second new groups.[58] Mature males also tend to leave their groups and establish their own troops by attracting emigrating females. However, male mountain gorillas sometimes stay in their natal troops and become subordinate to the silverback.

vapg1974 1y ago

The idea that there are straightforward “female” and “male” traits should seem quite shaky to anyone who is even a little bit into humanities... "Humanities", that alone makes your whole argument invalid. As if brain configuation, that staemming from genetics and hormone levels, had no influence in how the sexes perceive world and social clues and behave according to those perceptions. Not mentioning the inherent physical differences which also influence how they differently percieve the world and behave.

ogurechny 1y ago
As many others, you believe that by talking about certain things you're directly touching “real”, “material”, “physical” world. So-called humanities — barely even taught to so-called educated public — could help you see how that specific creed of scientism spread in last two centuries, how it was tied to mass education and journalism, and not actually to science, and what made you stick to it (no one told you that the outside world exists). You chose comfortable ignorance. Being a proud servant of the status quo is neither fresh, nor smart, nor scientific. Illiterate savages worshipped their idols in the exact same fashion.