7 ms·

Make sure libreoffice is included, and ublock origin. Show them how much faster it is, with fewer ads, and no subscription to Microsoft required just to write a

Make sure libreoffice is included, and ublock origin. Show them how much faster it is, with fewer ads, and no subscription to Microsoft required just to write a document. The business customers might want to know that databases are a lot cheaper on Linux, especially for small business. Literally spoke to an automation company the other week that told me "we have to delete a bunch of stuff every time the database gets near 10GB or we'll have to pay Microsoft". Plus there's no license cost for linux itself either. This stuff might not be viable for hundreds of employees in a business where MS is already entrenched, but for a small business it absolutely is a better deal.

gerdesj 1y ago
You have sqlite, mariadb/mysql, postgres and more just for mostly traditional SQL. Then you have the others ... 8) It's time for change. VMware have tossed themselves off into limbo and MS seem hell bent on alienating a vast swathe of humanity with W11's requirements - weirdest A/B test ever. I'm working on some bigger clients ...
trinsic2 1y ago
Yeah. I just tried LibreWolf recently and it comes with Ublock preinstalled. I think I am going to install that with some relaxed privacy settings. Libreoffice by default for sure.
zrobotics 1y ago
I wouldn't recommend deploying ublock on customer machines. Or at least ask what their workflow is first. There are a ton of SaaS sites that break with ad locking enabled. I run firefox+UBO+privacy badger on my machines, and the only sites I've had to disable my privacy extensions in the last few years for were work related, B2B SaaS apps. A few years ago I pushed UBO to user machines (Chrome on win10) at work, and had a ton of user issues. I finally had to disable it, it wasn't a net benefit to us. It's not just a 'turn it on and leave it alone' thing, and people don't always think or remember to try toggling it off and reloading the page when they encounter issues. That said, it's insane to me to be paying MS for a database with a 10GB limit, but I've seen their price lists. I've also worked with small businesses that don't have in-house IT, and they just end up overpaying for crappy service for many of those things. I hope this win11 migration causes more MSPs and consultants to move small businesses over to linux though, MS has been predatory on pricing for business customers for far too long and with as much work has migrated to a browser there will be way less issues switching than there were years ago.
- moduspol 1y ago
  Not defending it but for clarity: it’s SQL Server Express that has the 10GB limit, and it’s free. They’re staying under that limit so they DON’T have to pay Microsoft. Aside from the Windows license, presumably.
  - zrobotics 1y ago
    Thanks for clarifying. Looks like the jump to standard is 989/year (if I'm reading Microsoft's confusing pricing sheet correctly). That's enough of a jump that it would definitely be a budget item for a lot of business. And migrating to a different DB engine isn't often an easy task, but keeping a DB maintained under a size limit sounds like a PITA and prone to accidental deletion of needed data. I definitely don't envy someone having to deal with that.
- harshreality 1y ago
  If they don't remember the two-click procedure for toggling ublock on a website that they want to be using, they weren't paying attention when they were told or showed that, and all they need is a remedial work training session to hammer it in.
  - zrobotics 1y ago
    I mean, easier said than done. We pay accountants because they are good at their specialized field. They have knowledge and experience I don't, and there's certainly things that are obvious and simple to them that I don't know 9r remember. It's really easy to just say it's the LUsers fault and make pebkac jokes, and I definitely enjoy BOFH style humor, but honestly not everyone will remember the 30 seconds of training to go into this menu and toggle off an extension if netsuite throws a cryptic error or won't behave properly. I find it's better to have some empathy for other people, not everyone thinks like a computer and connecting 'I have this error message full of gibberish about API calls' and 'the IT guy mentioned 2 months ago that if a site isn't loading, I need to turn off this thing'.
    - 1y ago
Aurornis 1y ago
> Make sure libreoffice is included Probably an unpopular thing to say here, but in my experience pushing non-tech people to use libreoffice as part of a Linux transition is a fast track to getting them to hate Linux. Using Google Docs has been much more welcoming in my experience. Something about libreoffice doesn’t resonate with a lot of non-tech people.
- d3Xt3r 1y ago
  OnlyOffice might be a better option here - its UI is similar to MS Office, and it has a much better MS Office file format compatibility compared to LibreOffice.
  - sitharus 1y ago
    I've never heard of OnlyOffice, but that really looks quite promising. I'll have a deeper look at it later, but even though it's all webapp based it can't really be slower than libreoffice...
    - wbpaelias 1y ago
      They have desktop apps too, in my machine I'm only using the desktop stuff.
- foxandmouse 1y ago
  Couldn’t agree more, if you’re pitching Linux to a non-technical user, you need a gentler off-ramp, not a cliff dive. LibreOffice is a UI time capsule..more archaeology than productivity. Most millennials would think they’d accidentally opened a flight simulator.
  - bigstrat2003 1y ago
    > LibreOffice is a UI time capsule I'll grant that it's personal preference and OP should do what his customers prefer, but what you said is a good thing. UIs have sucked for some time now, so something which deliberately uses an older style is generally far superior.
heavyset_go 1y ago
I'd also try using OnlyOffice, FreeOffice/Softmaker, Collabora and WPS to see what has the best compatibility with Office documents. IMO, if they need Office, they should just use Windows.
AlotOfReading 1y ago
I can't imagine trying to replace MS word with libreoffice for businesses. I respect the project and the complexity of the task, but it's just not there for even light professional use. As an example, I recently submitted a manuscript following standard format [0] with libreoffice. Nothing difficult, just basic professional functionality. The only way to do it involved editing global default page styles (because custom page styles can't be used for title pages?) and other advanced features. Fair enough, at least it was possible. It's a shame the export process didn't preserve the formatting and screwed up page numbering. I had to fix the manuscript in gdocs instead, where it was easy. [0] https://www.shunn.net/format/story/1/ https://www.shunn.net/format/story/1/
- bee_rider 1y ago
  Programmers use markdown or LaTeX anyway; there’s approximately nobody excited about working on an office suite. It is a completely unrewarding task.
  - koakuma-chan 1y ago
    I use typst.
  - esun 1y ago
    This is a pretty ignorant take.
    - bee_rider 1y ago
      How so?
      - chipsrafferty 1y ago
        Programmers don't only work on software that they personally use?
  - chipsrafferty 1y ago
    I use Google docs
skopje 1y ago
I switched from Google Docs to Libre Office a few months ago. I'm surprised how buggy LO is, because I tried it a decade ago and it doesn't seem to have gotten any better. I don't plan on going back to MS or Google, but I am very frustrated with the number of bugs in LO's spreadsheets, so I try to keep my sheets simple and CTRL-S a LOT! Examples: [1] I selected a range of cells recently, by clicking and dragging, and when I let go of the mouse button, all of the selected cells shifted up and to the right by one cell, and CTRL-Z didn't undo it! [2] I have a workbook and when i duplicate a sheet with a chart, the chart is blank, so i have to delete it and re-insert a new one. [3] Sometimes the left-hand X-axis is cut in half, and I have no idea why, but if I create a new doc it goes away. I really, really want to promote LO, but it is very buggy. I can deal with it but I don't think others would.
- blahedo 1y ago
  I use LO for its word processor fairly extensively and have been pretty happy with it, but for spreadsheets I am 100% on team gnumeric---it is rock solid, less buggy than Excel itself, and supports a lot of Excel formulas and formatting better than MS's own web client.
  - skopje 1y ago
    thanks for the suggestion i just installed it (macos). it solved problem #2, I'll have to wait and see what happens with #1 and #3. I like it but it's like going to a new grocery store and everything is in a different place than i am used to thanks!
    - blahedo 1y ago
      Glad you liked it! For charts in particular, I find gnumeric to be more solid than any other spreadsheet software I've tried (including Excel)—the charts are more stable and more configurable, and there are options for more of them (e.g. histograms, which are something I frequently want and Excel just doesn't support, or at least didn't used to). Downside: once you've got a spreadsheet with really informative charts, it's sometimes hard to share, because saving it as .xlsx breaks some of them. :( Oh, another nifty feature of gnumeric: if you save it in its uncompressed format, it's literally .xml (good both for version control and for scripting certain kinds of things)

gerdesj 1y ago

You have sqlite, mariadb/mysql, postgres and more just for mostly traditional SQL. Then you have the others ... 8) It's time for change. VMware have tossed themselves off into limbo and MS seem hell bent on alienating a vast swathe of humanity with W11's requirements - weirdest A/B test ever. I'm working on some bigger clients ...

trinsic2 1y ago

Yeah. I just tried LibreWolf recently and it comes with Ublock preinstalled. I think I am going to install that with some relaxed privacy settings. Libreoffice by default for sure.

zrobotics 1y ago

I wouldn't recommend deploying ublock on customer machines. Or at least ask what their workflow is first. There are a ton of SaaS sites that break with ad locking enabled. I run firefox+UBO+privacy badger on my machines, and the only sites I've had to disable my privacy extensions in the last few years for were work related, B2B SaaS apps. A few years ago I pushed UBO to user machines (Chrome on win10) at work, and had a ton of user issues. I finally had to disable it, it wasn't a net benefit to us. It's not just a 'turn it on and leave it alone' thing, and people don't always think or remember to try toggling it off and reloading the page when they encounter issues. That said, it's insane to me to be paying MS for a database with a 10GB limit, but I've seen their price lists. I've also worked with small businesses that don't have in-house IT, and they just end up overpaying for crappy service for many of those things. I hope this win11 migration causes more MSPs and consultants to move small businesses over to linux though, MS has been predatory on pricing for business customers for far too long and with as much work has migrated to a browser there will be way less issues switching than there were years ago.

moduspol 1y ago
Not defending it but for clarity: it’s SQL Server Express that has the 10GB limit, and it’s free. They’re staying under that limit so they DON’T have to pay Microsoft. Aside from the Windows license, presumably.
- zrobotics 1y ago
  Thanks for clarifying. Looks like the jump to standard is 989/year (if I'm reading Microsoft's confusing pricing sheet correctly). That's enough of a jump that it would definitely be a budget item for a lot of business. And migrating to a different DB engine isn't often an easy task, but keeping a DB maintained under a size limit sounds like a PITA and prone to accidental deletion of needed data. I definitely don't envy someone having to deal with that.
harshreality 1y ago
If they don't remember the two-click procedure for toggling ublock on a website that they want to be using, they weren't paying attention when they were told or showed that, and all they need is a remedial work training session to hammer it in.
- zrobotics 1y ago
  I mean, easier said than done. We pay accountants because they are good at their specialized field. They have knowledge and experience I don't, and there's certainly things that are obvious and simple to them that I don't know 9r remember. It's really easy to just say it's the LUsers fault and make pebkac jokes, and I definitely enjoy BOFH style humor, but honestly not everyone will remember the 30 seconds of training to go into this menu and toggle off an extension if netsuite throws a cryptic error or won't behave properly. I find it's better to have some empathy for other people, not everyone thinks like a computer and connecting 'I have this error message full of gibberish about API calls' and 'the IT guy mentioned 2 months ago that if a site isn't loading, I need to turn off this thing'.
  - 1y ago

Aurornis 1y ago

> Make sure libreoffice is included Probably an unpopular thing to say here, but in my experience pushing non-tech people to use libreoffice as part of a Linux transition is a fast track to getting them to hate Linux. Using Google Docs has been much more welcoming in my experience. Something about libreoffice doesn’t resonate with a lot of non-tech people.

d3Xt3r 1y ago
OnlyOffice might be a better option here - its UI is similar to MS Office, and it has a much better MS Office file format compatibility compared to LibreOffice.
- sitharus 1y ago
  I've never heard of OnlyOffice, but that really looks quite promising. I'll have a deeper look at it later, but even though it's all webapp based it can't really be slower than libreoffice...
  - wbpaelias 1y ago
    They have desktop apps too, in my machine I'm only using the desktop stuff.
foxandmouse 1y ago
Couldn’t agree more, if you’re pitching Linux to a non-technical user, you need a gentler off-ramp, not a cliff dive. LibreOffice is a UI time capsule..more archaeology than productivity. Most millennials would think they’d accidentally opened a flight simulator.
- bigstrat2003 1y ago
  > LibreOffice is a UI time capsule I'll grant that it's personal preference and OP should do what his customers prefer, but what you said is a good thing. UIs have sucked for some time now, so something which deliberately uses an older style is generally far superior.

heavyset_go 1y ago

I'd also try using OnlyOffice, FreeOffice/Softmaker, Collabora and WPS to see what has the best compatibility with Office documents. IMO, if they need Office, they should just use Windows.

AlotOfReading 1y ago

I can't imagine trying to replace MS word with libreoffice for businesses. I respect the project and the complexity of the task, but it's just not there for even light professional use. As an example, I recently submitted a manuscript following standard format [0] with libreoffice. Nothing difficult, just basic professional functionality. The only way to do it involved editing global default page styles (because custom page styles can't be used for title pages?) and other advanced features. Fair enough, at least it was possible. It's a shame the export process didn't preserve the formatting and screwed up page numbering. I had to fix the manuscript in gdocs instead, where it was easy. [0] https://www.shunn.net/format/story/1/ https://www.shunn.net/format/story/1/

bee_rider 1y ago
Programmers use markdown or LaTeX anyway; there’s approximately nobody excited about working on an office suite. It is a completely unrewarding task.
- koakuma-chan 1y ago
  I use typst.
- esun 1y ago
  This is a pretty ignorant take.
  - bee_rider 1y ago
    How so?
    - chipsrafferty 1y ago
      Programmers don't only work on software that they personally use?
- chipsrafferty 1y ago
  I use Google docs

skopje 1y ago

I switched from Google Docs to Libre Office a few months ago. I'm surprised how buggy LO is, because I tried it a decade ago and it doesn't seem to have gotten any better. I don't plan on going back to MS or Google, but I am very frustrated with the number of bugs in LO's spreadsheets, so I try to keep my sheets simple and CTRL-S a LOT! Examples: [1] I selected a range of cells recently, by clicking and dragging, and when I let go of the mouse button, all of the selected cells shifted up and to the right by one cell, and CTRL-Z didn't undo it! [2] I have a workbook and when i duplicate a sheet with a chart, the chart is blank, so i have to delete it and re-insert a new one. [3] Sometimes the left-hand X-axis is cut in half, and I have no idea why, but if I create a new doc it goes away. I really, really want to promote LO, but it is very buggy. I can deal with it but I don't think others would.

blahedo 1y ago
I use LO for its word processor fairly extensively and have been pretty happy with it, but for spreadsheets I am 100% on team gnumeric---it is rock solid, less buggy than Excel itself, and supports a lot of Excel formulas and formatting better than MS's own web client.
- skopje 1y ago
  thanks for the suggestion i just installed it (macos). it solved problem #2, I'll have to wait and see what happens with #1 and #3. I like it but it's like going to a new grocery store and everything is in a different place than i am used to thanks!
  - blahedo 1y ago
    Glad you liked it! For charts in particular, I find gnumeric to be more solid than any other spreadsheet software I've tried (including Excel)—the charts are more stable and more configurable, and there are options for more of them (e.g. histograms, which are something I frequently want and Excel just doesn't support, or at least didn't used to). Downside: once you've got a spreadsheet with really informative charts, it's sometimes hard to share, because saving it as .xlsx breaks some of them. :( Oh, another nifty feature of gnumeric: if you save it in its uncompressed format, it's literally .xml (good both for version control and for scripting certain kinds of things)