4 ms·

Of course it's not determinism but it is statistically causal. The point is the distribution of the student body is going to be different in a pretty significa

Of course it's not determinism but it is statistically causal. The point is the distribution of the student body is going to be different in a pretty significant way.

tptacek 1y ago
"Statistically causal"?
- Dylan16807 1y ago
  You said correlation, I said "causal" because it's going from parent to child. "statistically" meaning any individual child could have any IQ, and genes are only one factor out of many, but when you measure the entire group the graph of IQs is going to look different. A comparison would be like, filtering IVF in 50 couples based on X/Y chromosomes and measuring height. That filter doesn't decide how tall a child will be, but it does shift the average. The filter would cause a height change, on a statistical basis.
  - tptacek 1y ago
    This is all very fuzzy. "Heritability", of the sort that we have numbers from peer-reviewed articles on, means something specific, and that specific meaning is not genetically causal.
    - Dylan16807 1y ago
      That wiki page lists a lot of evidence that a meaningful chunk is genetically causal. Is there a strong reason for me to think otherwise? Even the pessimistic numbers from gene mapping that are cited are .1-.2
      - tptacek 1y ago
        I mean, start with the fact that it's a correlation statistic and not a causal statistic and just work your way back from that. Heritability --- of the kind with a research literature cite record --- is simply the ratio of phenotypical variation to genetic variation. The number of fingers on your hand is not, in that statistic, highly heritable. I don't think there's a Wikipedia cite that's going to get you over that speed bump in your argument.
        Dylan16807 1y ago
        A lot of those studies work very hard to split apart the genetic (and sometimes including epigenetic) factors at point of sperm meets egg, the environmental factors in the womb, the parenting factors, and/or the rest of the post-birth environment. They're not doing a simple ratio. And to the extent that research successfully isolates the genetic factors, we know it's not some outside factor causing a correlation, and we know it's not IQ causing genes. Anything isolated there is genes causing IQ.
        tptacek 1y ago
        IQ absolutely can cause genes! It's called assortative mating, and it's super potent and difficult to control for.
        Dylan16807 1y ago
        Was it not clear that I was talking about the IQ and genes within each single person.
        tptacek 1y ago
        I think you should take a beat and read up on assortative mating; also on heritability, which is a population statistic, not a measure of any single person. As it stands, this response you just wrote doesn't make sense.
        1y ago

Of course it's not determinism but it is statistically causal. The point is the distribution of the student body is going to be different in a pretty significant way.

tptacek 1y ago

"Statistically causal"?

Dylan16807 1y ago
You said correlation, I said "causal" because it's going from parent to child. "statistically" meaning any individual child could have any IQ, and genes are only one factor out of many, but when you measure the entire group the graph of IQs is going to look different. A comparison would be like, filtering IVF in 50 couples based on X/Y chromosomes and measuring height. That filter doesn't decide how tall a child will be, but it does shift the average. The filter would cause a height change, on a statistical basis.
- tptacek 1y ago
  This is all very fuzzy. "Heritability", of the sort that we have numbers from peer-reviewed articles on, means something specific, and that specific meaning is not genetically causal.
  - Dylan16807 1y ago
    That wiki page lists a lot of evidence that a meaningful chunk is genetically causal. Is there a strong reason for me to think otherwise? Even the pessimistic numbers from gene mapping that are cited are .1-.2
    - tptacek 1y ago
      I mean, start with the fact that it's a correlation statistic and not a causal statistic and just work your way back from that. Heritability --- of the kind with a research literature cite record --- is simply the ratio of phenotypical variation to genetic variation. The number of fingers on your hand is not, in that statistic, highly heritable. I don't think there's a Wikipedia cite that's going to get you over that speed bump in your argument.
      - Dylan16807 1y ago
        A lot of those studies work very hard to split apart the genetic (and sometimes including epigenetic) factors at point of sperm meets egg, the environmental factors in the womb, the parenting factors, and/or the rest of the post-birth environment. They're not doing a simple ratio. And to the extent that research successfully isolates the genetic factors, we know it's not some outside factor causing a correlation, and we know it's not IQ causing genes. Anything isolated there is genes causing IQ.
        tptacek 1y ago
        IQ absolutely can cause genes! It's called assortative mating, and it's super potent and difficult to control for.
        Dylan16807 1y ago
        Was it not clear that I was talking about the IQ and genes within each single person.
        tptacek 1y ago
        I think you should take a beat and read up on assortative mating; also on heritability, which is a population statistic, not a measure of any single person. As it stands, this response you just wrote doesn't make sense.
        1y ago