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I think that's how zevon interpreted it, so that's what I responded to. Personally I would include other methods. And for the argument about schools method do

I think that's how zevon interpreted it, so that's what I responded to. Personally I would include other methods. And for the argument about schools method doesn't really matter. Edit: And I don't know if genetics are the biggest factor in single generation inheritance, especially at a younger age, but I do think they're a reasonably significant factor after looking at various estimates.

tptacek 1y ago
Right, just so we're clear that heritability isn't genetic determinism; it's a correlation statistic. All sorts of things are heritable that are absolutely not fixed by genetics. And there are things fixed by genes that aren't meaningfully heritable!
- Dylan16807 1y ago
  Of course it's not determinism but it is statistically causal. The point is the distribution of the student body is going to be different in a pretty significant way.
  - tptacek 1y ago
    "Statistically causal"?
    - Dylan16807 1y ago
      You said correlation, I said "causal" because it's going from parent to child. "statistically" meaning any individual child could have any IQ, and genes are only one factor out of many, but when you measure the entire group the graph of IQs is going to look different. A comparison would be like, filtering IVF in 50 couples based on X/Y chromosomes and measuring height. That filter doesn't decide how tall a child will be, but it does shift the average. The filter would cause a height change, on a statistical basis.
      - tptacek 1y ago
        This is all very fuzzy. "Heritability", of the sort that we have numbers from peer-reviewed articles on, means something specific, and that specific meaning is not genetically causal.
        Dylan16807 1y ago
        That wiki page lists a lot of evidence that a meaningful chunk is genetically causal. Is there a strong reason for me to think otherwise? Even the pessimistic numbers from gene mapping that are cited are .1-.2
        tptacek 1y ago
        I mean, start with the fact that it's a correlation statistic and not a causal statistic and just work your way back from that. Heritability --- of the kind with a research literature cite record --- is simply the ratio of phenotypical variation to genetic variation. The number of fingers on your hand is not, in that statistic, highly heritable. I don't think there's a Wikipedia cite that's going to get you over that speed bump in your argument.
        Dylan16807 1y ago
        A lot of those studies work very hard to split apart the genetic (and sometimes including epigenetic) factors at point of sperm meets egg, the environmental factors in the womb, the parenting factors, and/or the rest of the post-birth environment. They're not doing a simple ratio. And to the extent that research successfully isolates the genetic factors, we know it's not some outside factor causing a correlation, and we know it's not IQ causing genes. Anything isolated there is genes causing IQ.
        tptacek 1y ago
        IQ absolutely can cause genes! It's called assortative mating, and it's super potent and difficult to control for.

tptacek 1y ago

Right, just so we're clear that heritability isn't genetic determinism; it's a correlation statistic. All sorts of things are heritable that are absolutely not fixed by genetics. And there are things fixed by genes that aren't meaningfully heritable!

Dylan16807 1y ago
Of course it's not determinism but it is statistically causal. The point is the distribution of the student body is going to be different in a pretty significant way.
- tptacek 1y ago
  "Statistically causal"?
  - Dylan16807 1y ago
    You said correlation, I said "causal" because it's going from parent to child. "statistically" meaning any individual child could have any IQ, and genes are only one factor out of many, but when you measure the entire group the graph of IQs is going to look different. A comparison would be like, filtering IVF in 50 couples based on X/Y chromosomes and measuring height. That filter doesn't decide how tall a child will be, but it does shift the average. The filter would cause a height change, on a statistical basis.
    - tptacek 1y ago
      This is all very fuzzy. "Heritability", of the sort that we have numbers from peer-reviewed articles on, means something specific, and that specific meaning is not genetically causal.
      - Dylan16807 1y ago
        That wiki page lists a lot of evidence that a meaningful chunk is genetically causal. Is there a strong reason for me to think otherwise? Even the pessimistic numbers from gene mapping that are cited are .1-.2
        tptacek 1y ago
        I mean, start with the fact that it's a correlation statistic and not a causal statistic and just work your way back from that. Heritability --- of the kind with a research literature cite record --- is simply the ratio of phenotypical variation to genetic variation. The number of fingers on your hand is not, in that statistic, highly heritable. I don't think there's a Wikipedia cite that's going to get you over that speed bump in your argument.
        Dylan16807 1y ago
        A lot of those studies work very hard to split apart the genetic (and sometimes including epigenetic) factors at point of sperm meets egg, the environmental factors in the womb, the parenting factors, and/or the rest of the post-birth environment. They're not doing a simple ratio. And to the extent that research successfully isolates the genetic factors, we know it's not some outside factor causing a correlation, and we know it's not IQ causing genes. Anything isolated there is genes causing IQ.
        tptacek 1y ago
        IQ absolutely can cause genes! It's called assortative mating, and it's super potent and difficult to control for.