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A lot of Apple hardware is impressive on paper, but I will never buy a Mac that can't run Linux. I simply don't want to live in Apple's walled garden. Then the

A lot of Apple hardware is impressive on paper, but I will never buy a Mac that can't run Linux. I simply don't want to live in Apple's walled garden. Then there is the whole ARM vs x86 issue. Even if a compatible Linux distro were made, I expect to run all kinds of software on my desktop rig including games, and ARM is still a dead end for that. For laptops, it's probably a sensible choice now, but we're still far from truly free and usable ARM desktop.

geek_at 1y ago
I'm still looking for a decent ARM laptop that runs linux well. I have my eye on one from lenovo but linux support is still not the best
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
littlecranky67 1y ago
> A lot of Apple hardware is impressive on paper, but I will never buy a Mac that can't run Linux. They run Linux actually very well, have you ever tried Parallels or VMware Fusion? Especially Parallels ships with good softwaer drivers for 2d/3d/video acceleration, suspend, and integration into the host OS. If that is not your thing, the new native container solution in Tahoe can run container from dockerhub and co. > I simply don't want to live in Apple's walled garden. And what walled garden would that be on macOS? You can install what you want, and there is homebrew at your fingertips with all the open and non-open software you can ask for.
- imoverclocked 1y ago
  ... or UTM. I have run windows and Linux on my M1 MB Pro with plenty of success. Windows - because I needed it for a single application. Linux - has been extremely useful as a compliment to small arm SBCs that I run. eg: Compiling a kernel is much faster there than on (say) a Raspberry Pi. Also, USB device sharing makes working with vfat/ext4 filesystems on small memory cards a breeze.
- mixmastamyk 1y ago
  Last I looked... extensive telemetry and a sealed boot volume that makes it impractical to turn off even if theoretically possible. There are other problems of course.
  - TypesWillSaveUs 1y ago
    You can disable SIP and even disable immutable kernel text, load arbitrary drivers, enable/disable any feature, remove any system daemon, use any restricted entitlements. The entire security model of macOS can be toggled off (csrutil from recoveryOS).
    - mixmastamyk 1y ago
      Aware of that. Way too big of a request just to make reasonable configuration changes, like shutting down daemons, etc.
      - Klonoar 1y ago
        No, it’s not that big a request. You literally have the capability. The average user does not need it. What is hard about this?
        mixmastamyk 1y ago
        Stopping/disabling a service should be a command, like it is on Windows or Linux. Not configured on a read-only volume bundled with other security guarantees. It's pretty simple to keep these two things separate, like everywhere else in the present and history of the industry.
        Klonoar 1y ago
        Just because Windows/Linux do things one way doesn't mean the rest of the industry has to follow it. ;P
  - niek_pas 1y ago
- ed_mercer 1y ago
  Would it be possible to run a whole linux OS on macos, even if through virtualization?
- cholantesh 1y ago
  How does Asahi fare these days? For home use I am fine with my Fedora machine but as a former (Tiger-SL era) Mac user who's never used macOS, I am somewhat curious about this.
  - andyferris 1y ago
    Remember Asahi works properly only on M1 and M2. More work is required to make it run well on later chips (its not just a faster ARM chip - it's new graphics card each time, motherboard chipset, every laptop peripheral changes from time to time, BIOS/UEFI, etc, and they all need reverse-engineered drivers for it work).
- kaladin-jasnah 1y ago
  From what I checked, disabling SIP/AMFI/whatever it is now means I can't run iOS applications on macOS. The fact that there are restrictions on what I can run when doing that makes macOS more restrictive. Also, what if I want to run eBPF on my laptop on bare metal, to escape the hypercall overhead from VMs or whatever? Ultimately, a VM is not the same as a native experience. I might want to take advantage of acceleration for peripherals that aren't available unless I'm bare metal.
  - littlecranky67 1y ago
    That point is often brought up, but it kind of invalid. Because you can't run iOS on your Linux or Windows installation, too. So saying because of that usecase you are switching the OS, is kind of a spite reaction, not based on reason. As in: "I can't run iOS on my macOS installation, so I am going to use a different OS where I can't run iOS either".
    - davkan 1y ago
      Well it’s just one less plus in the macOS column. I switched from pixel to iPhone in large part because pixel removed the rear fingerprint reader, headphone jack, and a UI shortcut I used multiple times a day. It’s not like the iPhone had those things but now neither did the pixel.
    - kaladin-jasnah 1y ago
      Well, it's less of a feature argument, and more of a "I philosophically don't support using an OS that prevents me from using parts of it, because I oppose losing control over the software my system runs."
gffrd 1y ago
[flagged]
- jokoon 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - gffrd 1y ago
    My point was: we don’t need to list all the reasons we won’t buy apple products on any post about apple, even if it has nothing to do with the article. We’ve beaten the horse many times over.
drcode 1y ago
M1 and M2 Macs run Asahi Linux very well (but no option for M3,M4,M5 yet)
a456463 1y ago
I came to chime in. I have hardware that apple chooses to willfully upsell me on repairing and $1500 for $35 keyboard repair. Apple as a company is still terrible at recycling and manufacturing obseletion. It is also a walled garden with no choice as to what you can do on your machines.
jokoon 1y ago
honestly, computing speed doesn't matter that much anymore I mean as long as the law of wirth does not bite too hard
bee_rider 1y ago
It sounds like Linux works fairly well on Strix Halo, which basically gives Apple a run for their money and stays in the nice x86 land. The M1 and M2 chips were envy-inducing chips from the heavens or whatever, but now that the mortals have caught up I don’t really see the point in worrying about Linux on ARM. X86 remains the present, RISC-V is the future.
visionscaper 1y ago
Isn’t to core of MacOS derived from Unix?
baka367 1y ago
Meanwhile I finally bought into apple after my nth unsuccessful attempt to break into linux. I just want a linux-like system that is not mainful to use and apple's is the closest thing that worked for me without resorting to last ditch efforts like sacrificing virgin maidens or newborn kittens on top of my Dell machine... and Apple provides one that just works ... reliably
- stevage 1y ago
  Ha, I came crawling back to macOS after a couple of years' dalliance with Windows. It was not a good experience.

geek_at 1y ago

I'm still looking for a decent ARM laptop that runs linux well. I have my eye on one from lenovo but linux support is still not the best

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

littlecranky67 1y ago

> A lot of Apple hardware is impressive on paper, but I will never buy a Mac that can't run Linux. They run Linux actually very well, have you ever tried Parallels or VMware Fusion? Especially Parallels ships with good softwaer drivers for 2d/3d/video acceleration, suspend, and integration into the host OS. If that is not your thing, the new native container solution in Tahoe can run container from dockerhub and co. > I simply don't want to live in Apple's walled garden. And what walled garden would that be on macOS? You can install what you want, and there is homebrew at your fingertips with all the open and non-open software you can ask for.

imoverclocked 1y ago
... or UTM. I have run windows and Linux on my M1 MB Pro with plenty of success. Windows - because I needed it for a single application. Linux - has been extremely useful as a compliment to small arm SBCs that I run. eg: Compiling a kernel is much faster there than on (say) a Raspberry Pi. Also, USB device sharing makes working with vfat/ext4 filesystems on small memory cards a breeze.
mixmastamyk 1y ago
Last I looked... extensive telemetry and a sealed boot volume that makes it impractical to turn off even if theoretically possible. There are other problems of course.
- TypesWillSaveUs 1y ago
  You can disable SIP and even disable immutable kernel text, load arbitrary drivers, enable/disable any feature, remove any system daemon, use any restricted entitlements. The entire security model of macOS can be toggled off (csrutil from recoveryOS).
  - mixmastamyk 1y ago
    Aware of that. Way too big of a request just to make reasonable configuration changes, like shutting down daemons, etc.
    - Klonoar 1y ago
      No, it’s not that big a request. You literally have the capability. The average user does not need it. What is hard about this?
      - mixmastamyk 1y ago
        Stopping/disabling a service should be a command, like it is on Windows or Linux. Not configured on a read-only volume bundled with other security guarantees. It's pretty simple to keep these two things separate, like everywhere else in the present and history of the industry.
        Klonoar 1y ago
        Just because Windows/Linux do things one way doesn't mean the rest of the industry has to follow it. ;P
- niek_pas 1y ago
ed_mercer 1y ago
Would it be possible to run a whole linux OS on macos, even if through virtualization?
cholantesh 1y ago
How does Asahi fare these days? For home use I am fine with my Fedora machine but as a former (Tiger-SL era) Mac user who's never used macOS, I am somewhat curious about this.
- andyferris 1y ago
  Remember Asahi works properly only on M1 and M2. More work is required to make it run well on later chips (its not just a faster ARM chip - it's new graphics card each time, motherboard chipset, every laptop peripheral changes from time to time, BIOS/UEFI, etc, and they all need reverse-engineered drivers for it work).
kaladin-jasnah 1y ago
From what I checked, disabling SIP/AMFI/whatever it is now means I can't run iOS applications on macOS. The fact that there are restrictions on what I can run when doing that makes macOS more restrictive. Also, what if I want to run eBPF on my laptop on bare metal, to escape the hypercall overhead from VMs or whatever? Ultimately, a VM is not the same as a native experience. I might want to take advantage of acceleration for peripherals that aren't available unless I'm bare metal.
- littlecranky67 1y ago
  That point is often brought up, but it kind of invalid. Because you can't run iOS on your Linux or Windows installation, too. So saying because of that usecase you are switching the OS, is kind of a spite reaction, not based on reason. As in: "I can't run iOS on my macOS installation, so I am going to use a different OS where I can't run iOS either".
  - davkan 1y ago
    Well it’s just one less plus in the macOS column. I switched from pixel to iPhone in large part because pixel removed the rear fingerprint reader, headphone jack, and a UI shortcut I used multiple times a day. It’s not like the iPhone had those things but now neither did the pixel.
  - kaladin-jasnah 1y ago
    Well, it's less of a feature argument, and more of a "I philosophically don't support using an OS that prevents me from using parts of it, because I oppose losing control over the software my system runs."

gffrd 1y ago

[flagged]

jokoon 1y ago
[flagged]
- gffrd 1y ago
  My point was: we don’t need to list all the reasons we won’t buy apple products on any post about apple, even if it has nothing to do with the article. We’ve beaten the horse many times over.

drcode 1y ago

M1 and M2 Macs run Asahi Linux very well (but no option for M3,M4,M5 yet)

a456463 1y ago

I came to chime in. I have hardware that apple chooses to willfully upsell me on repairing and $1500 for $35 keyboard repair. Apple as a company is still terrible at recycling and manufacturing obseletion. It is also a walled garden with no choice as to what you can do on your machines.

jokoon 1y ago

honestly, computing speed doesn't matter that much anymore I mean as long as the law of wirth does not bite too hard

bee_rider 1y ago

It sounds like Linux works fairly well on Strix Halo, which basically gives Apple a run for their money and stays in the nice x86 land. The M1 and M2 chips were envy-inducing chips from the heavens or whatever, but now that the mortals have caught up I don’t really see the point in worrying about Linux on ARM. X86 remains the present, RISC-V is the future.

visionscaper 1y ago

Isn’t to core of MacOS derived from Unix?

baka367 1y ago

Meanwhile I finally bought into apple after my nth unsuccessful attempt to break into linux. I just want a linux-like system that is not mainful to use and apple's is the closest thing that worked for me without resorting to last ditch efforts like sacrificing virgin maidens or newborn kittens on top of my Dell machine... and Apple provides one that just works ... reliably

stevage 1y ago
Ha, I came crawling back to macOS after a couple of years' dalliance with Windows. It was not a good experience.