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Spent significant time in Vietnam & Cambodia & Thailand. Cambodia is a sad country full of desperate people. "less-policed" is the entire country. ~50 years si

Spent significant time in Vietnam & Cambodia & Thailand. Cambodia is a sad country full of desperate people. "less-policed" is the entire country. ~50 years since https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide. Vietnam was by far my favorite of the three and the contrast between the three countries is stark.

OutOfHere 1y ago
How does Laos compare?
- timtom123 1y ago
  Sorry, I can't say. I always stayed near the water for work as a dive master or ESL teacher, so I never made it to Laos.
parthdesai 1y ago
> Spent significant time in Vietnam & Cambodia & Thailand. Cambodia is a sad country full of desperate people. Probably should also include which country is responsible for the current condition of the country. https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1175241-once-you-ve-been-to-cambodia-you-ll-never-stop-wanting-to https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1175241-once-you-ve-been-to...
- ctxc 1y ago
  Content: "Once you’ve been to Cambodia, you’ll never stop wanting to beat Henry Kissinger to death with your bare hands. You will never again be able to open a newspaper and read about that treacherous, prevaricating, murderous scumbag sitting down for a nice chat with Charlie Rose or attending some black-tie affair for a new glossy magazine without choking. Witness what Henry did in Cambodia – the fruits of his genius for statesmanship – and you will never understand why he’s not sitting in the dock at The Hague next to Milošević." I had to read up, and...my goodness. Apparently the US bombed a neutral Cambodia secretly to incite Vietnam's neighboring countries and put pressure on them, killing 30k to 150k civilians. This caused unrest, and gave way to Khmer Rouge to sieze power, using "defense against the US" as propoganda.
  - unyttigfjelltol 1y ago
    Pol Pot probably was more proximally at fault.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_Pot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_Pot
    - cogman10 1y ago
      It's a giant mess. I don't think Pot would have gained the support/power that he did without the US indiscriminate bombing. Much like the creation of ISIS and the strengthening of the Taliban in Afghanistan, it turns out people don't like the people dropping bombs on them. They'll turn to whoever is fighting the bombers. The US involvement in Vietnam would have already been over before the uprising of Pot had Nixon and Kissinger not skuttled peace talks to help Nixon get elected.
      - unyttigfjelltol 1y ago
        Iraq, for example, didn’t turn into Cambodia and conditions pre-ISIS in Syria more directly fostered its creation. See a discussion of “proximate cause.”[1] [1] https://legalclarity.org/what-is-the-difference-between-direct-and-proximate-cause/ https://legalclarity.org/what-is-the-difference-between-dire...
      - refurb 1y ago
        It’s not like Cambodia was a stable democracy before the bombings. The Khmer Rouge and other opposition groups were fighting the government in an armed conflict since 1950. The Khmer Rouge controlled almost half of Cambodia’s territory 10 years before the bombing. In the grand scheme of Cambodias civil war, the US bombing didn’t play that big a role at all.
    - dunkvg 1y ago
      You can point the fingers everywhere, you can also say the French were at fault because of the core of the Khmer Rouge group were scholarship students who were sent to France to study socialism, came back with that education and used to to establish the Khmer Rouge.
- UltraSane 1y ago
  I think PolPot has more responsibility for this.
  - cogman10 1y ago
    He's responsible, but the question is if he'd have gained the power and support without the US's meddling.
  - Saline9515 1y ago
    Pol Pot was not alone, revolutionary movements breed on fertile grounds.
bugbuddy 1y ago
[flagged]
- alephnerd 1y ago
  My SO's family is from the portion of Gia Lai neighboring Cambodia. Gia Lai itself is fairly poor, but ime the neighboring half of Cambodia is even poorer and desperate. It's the same story in the Mekong Delta as well (having had to go to extended family weddings in rural An Giang). And calling out the relative lawlessness in Cambodia is not racism in any shape or form. Based on your comment history, it seems you are reflexively defensive about Cambodia to a startling degree. Cambodia was dealt a bad hand, but so was Vietnam and Laos as well, yet neither have the same degree of institutionalized criminality that you see in Cambodia. The problem at the end of the day lies with the country's leadership, and a quasi-reformed Khmer Rouge member like Hun Sen just isn't the right leader to help Cambodia develop out of the LDC category. Heck, Bangladesh (historically a peer of Cambodia) was also formed due to a tumultuous history and severe instability in the 1970s-90s, but concentrated on state capacity development - something which Cambodia's leadership thumbed their nose at in the 2010s.
  - bugbuddy 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - alephnerd 1y ago
      > How do you know they are “desperate” Based on the fact that Cambodian day laborers come to work as migrant workers in a region that Vietnamese (Kinh or Jarai) try to leave if they can. HDI metrics themselves also represents that fact. Gia Lai - one of the poorest provinces in VN - has a higher Human Development Index (HDI) than all of Cambodia. > Given the recent developments in Bangladesh Yet the average Bangladeshi earns more money, is significantly more educated, and has a longer life expectancy than the average Cambodian. Cambodia's HDI remains well below it's LDC peers across Asia, and that divergence only really began in the 2010s. > Based on your biased opinion given your relative partiality toward Vietnamese... I have been fairly open on HN about my criticisms about Vietnam, such as the authoritarian regression under To Lam along with VN's increased hallmarks of falling into a real estate and export economy induced middle income trap > Cambodia has cooperated with the foreign government consistently South Korea has literally banned Korean nationals from travelling to vast portions of Cambodia today and is considering cancelling aid projects because of non-cooperation from the Cambodian government. > I see no such thing In English, "you" is often used in the 3rd person as well, especially when communicating on a forum where conversations and readers are not only the OP ------------- There is no reason why Cambodia can't pull off a similar developmental story like Vietnam or Bangladesh, yet Cambodian leadership in the 2010s and today has dropped the ball because any attempt at making Cambodia a more open economy would undermine rent seeking activities.
dunkvg 1y ago
Yes they are not on the same level, Thailand used to be far ahead but has stagnated and Vietnam has caught up, Cambodia is so far behind you cannot imagine it will ever catch up with its neighboring countries. They still use dollars as currency because the local currency is so unstable

OutOfHere 1y ago

How does Laos compare?

timtom123 1y ago
Sorry, I can't say. I always stayed near the water for work as a dive master or ESL teacher, so I never made it to Laos.

parthdesai 1y ago

> Spent significant time in Vietnam & Cambodia & Thailand. Cambodia is a sad country full of desperate people. Probably should also include which country is responsible for the current condition of the country. https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1175241-once-you-ve-been-to-cambodia-you-ll-never-stop-wanting-to https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1175241-once-you-ve-been-to...

ctxc 1y ago
Content: "Once you’ve been to Cambodia, you’ll never stop wanting to beat Henry Kissinger to death with your bare hands. You will never again be able to open a newspaper and read about that treacherous, prevaricating, murderous scumbag sitting down for a nice chat with Charlie Rose or attending some black-tie affair for a new glossy magazine without choking. Witness what Henry did in Cambodia – the fruits of his genius for statesmanship – and you will never understand why he’s not sitting in the dock at The Hague next to Milošević." I had to read up, and...my goodness. Apparently the US bombed a neutral Cambodia secretly to incite Vietnam's neighboring countries and put pressure on them, killing 30k to 150k civilians. This caused unrest, and gave way to Khmer Rouge to sieze power, using "defense against the US" as propoganda.
- unyttigfjelltol 1y ago
  Pol Pot probably was more proximally at fault.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_Pot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_Pot
  - cogman10 1y ago
    It's a giant mess. I don't think Pot would have gained the support/power that he did without the US indiscriminate bombing. Much like the creation of ISIS and the strengthening of the Taliban in Afghanistan, it turns out people don't like the people dropping bombs on them. They'll turn to whoever is fighting the bombers. The US involvement in Vietnam would have already been over before the uprising of Pot had Nixon and Kissinger not skuttled peace talks to help Nixon get elected.
    - unyttigfjelltol 1y ago
      Iraq, for example, didn’t turn into Cambodia and conditions pre-ISIS in Syria more directly fostered its creation. See a discussion of “proximate cause.”[1] [1] https://legalclarity.org/what-is-the-difference-between-direct-and-proximate-cause/ https://legalclarity.org/what-is-the-difference-between-dire...
    - refurb 1y ago
      It’s not like Cambodia was a stable democracy before the bombings. The Khmer Rouge and other opposition groups were fighting the government in an armed conflict since 1950. The Khmer Rouge controlled almost half of Cambodia’s territory 10 years before the bombing. In the grand scheme of Cambodias civil war, the US bombing didn’t play that big a role at all.
  - dunkvg 1y ago
    You can point the fingers everywhere, you can also say the French were at fault because of the core of the Khmer Rouge group were scholarship students who were sent to France to study socialism, came back with that education and used to to establish the Khmer Rouge.
UltraSane 1y ago
I think PolPot has more responsibility for this.
- cogman10 1y ago
  He's responsible, but the question is if he'd have gained the power and support without the US's meddling.
- Saline9515 1y ago
  Pol Pot was not alone, revolutionary movements breed on fertile grounds.

bugbuddy 1y ago

[flagged]

alephnerd 1y ago
My SO's family is from the portion of Gia Lai neighboring Cambodia. Gia Lai itself is fairly poor, but ime the neighboring half of Cambodia is even poorer and desperate. It's the same story in the Mekong Delta as well (having had to go to extended family weddings in rural An Giang). And calling out the relative lawlessness in Cambodia is not racism in any shape or form. Based on your comment history, it seems you are reflexively defensive about Cambodia to a startling degree. Cambodia was dealt a bad hand, but so was Vietnam and Laos as well, yet neither have the same degree of institutionalized criminality that you see in Cambodia. The problem at the end of the day lies with the country's leadership, and a quasi-reformed Khmer Rouge member like Hun Sen just isn't the right leader to help Cambodia develop out of the LDC category. Heck, Bangladesh (historically a peer of Cambodia) was also formed due to a tumultuous history and severe instability in the 1970s-90s, but concentrated on state capacity development - something which Cambodia's leadership thumbed their nose at in the 2010s.
- bugbuddy 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - alephnerd 1y ago
    > How do you know they are “desperate” Based on the fact that Cambodian day laborers come to work as migrant workers in a region that Vietnamese (Kinh or Jarai) try to leave if they can. HDI metrics themselves also represents that fact. Gia Lai - one of the poorest provinces in VN - has a higher Human Development Index (HDI) than all of Cambodia. > Given the recent developments in Bangladesh Yet the average Bangladeshi earns more money, is significantly more educated, and has a longer life expectancy than the average Cambodian. Cambodia's HDI remains well below it's LDC peers across Asia, and that divergence only really began in the 2010s. > Based on your biased opinion given your relative partiality toward Vietnamese... I have been fairly open on HN about my criticisms about Vietnam, such as the authoritarian regression under To Lam along with VN's increased hallmarks of falling into a real estate and export economy induced middle income trap > Cambodia has cooperated with the foreign government consistently South Korea has literally banned Korean nationals from travelling to vast portions of Cambodia today and is considering cancelling aid projects because of non-cooperation from the Cambodian government. > I see no such thing In English, "you" is often used in the 3rd person as well, especially when communicating on a forum where conversations and readers are not only the OP ------------- There is no reason why Cambodia can't pull off a similar developmental story like Vietnam or Bangladesh, yet Cambodian leadership in the 2010s and today has dropped the ball because any attempt at making Cambodia a more open economy would undermine rent seeking activities.

dunkvg 1y ago

Yes they are not on the same level, Thailand used to be far ahead but has stagnated and Vietnam has caught up, Cambodia is so far behind you cannot imagine it will ever catch up with its neighboring countries. They still use dollars as currency because the local currency is so unstable