5 ms·

> This same institution operates America’s highest-performing school system. DoDEA students scored 234 in fourth-grade reading on the 2024 NAEP, outperforming t

> This same institution operates America’s highest-performing school system. DoDEA students scored 234 in fourth-grade reading on the 2024 NAEP, outperforming the national average of 214. That’s roughly two grade levels ahead. In eighth-grade math, DoDEA scored 291 versus 272 nationally. When 2024 NAEP results showed national reading scores declining, DoDEA was the only jurisdiction where scores increased. How again do we know this isn’t entirely due to selection effects?

thaumasiotes 1y ago
The military imposes strict IQ thresholds on those seeking to join. That's the point of the Armed Forces Qualifying Test.
- duskwuff 1y ago
  DoDEA teaches the children of military families, not the enlisted themselves.
  - lmm 1y ago
    While it's fashionable to pretend otherwise, the best available evidence is that inheritance is highly heritable.
    - zevon 1y ago
      Correlations between socioeconomic status and success of one's offspring in educational systems don't mean that intelligence is inherited in the genetic sense. If you're seriously arguing this, you're very close to flirting with eugenics and the like.
      - Dylan16807 1y ago
        > If you're seriously arguing this, you're very close to flirting with eugenics and the like. Please don't be so eager to reject eugenics that you end up being anti-science. The idea that some percent of intelligence is genetic is entirely reasonable, not something to refuse to consider. And there's good evidence too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ
        zevon 1y ago
        I did not say nor mean to imply that genetics do not have anything to do with IQ or intelligence. Also, context matters - this is a thread about how to structure educational environments and about certain specifics of the military. Genetics are a factor that is going to be of limited practical use in this domain, at least as far as I can fantasize OTOH.
        Dylan16807 1y ago
        > I did not say nor mean to imply that genetics do not have anything to do with IQ or intelligence. Please explain what "Correlations between socioeconomic status and success of one's offspring in educational systems don't mean that intelligence is inherited in the genetic sense." means because it sure looks like an argument that the genetic component isn't real. Especially because you posted that in response to someone talking about heritability in very general terms, so your comment can't be interpreted as a nitpick about which evidence goes where. And I can't think of any third interpretation. > this is a thread about how to structure educational environments and about certain specifics of the military The idea being presented is that it's easier to run good schools when you have smarter students with smarter parents. So the inheritability of intelligence over a single generation is critical to the argument.
        zevon 1y ago
        Maybe what I actually meant to express becomes more clear if I re-phrase and expand the the sentence a bit: Correlations between socioeconomic status and success of one's offspring in educational systems does not mean that you can determine genetics as a relevant factor when thinking about how to structure education and if one is interested in the relationship between success (on whatever metric) in education and family trees. I'm neither a geneticist nor is English my first language but I've always understood "heritability" to be a term that very much has to do with genetics and the Wikipedia link you provided implies the same. If we are talking about other factors/mechanisms that impact success in educational systems and that express themselves over generations and in family structures - sure, that's basically what I'm saying. --- (Long) edit after a cup of tea and a sandwich spent over the Wikipedia-Link you provided: I must say, I think that's pretty readable even for me as a non-geneticist. In the context of this thread, there is a lot of interesting info about "Heritability and caveats", "Influences" and "Environmental effects". I've highlighted these quotes for myself while reading: "Although IQ differences between individuals have been shown to have a hereditary component, it does not follow that disparities in IQ between groups have a genetic basis." "Heritability measures the proportion of variation in a trait that can be attributed to genes, and not the proportion of a trait caused by genes." "Contrary to popular belief, two parents of higher IQ will not necessarily produce offspring of equal or higher intelligence. Polygenic traits often appear less heritable at the extremes." The whole section on "Implications": "Some researchers, especially those that work in fields like developmental systems theory, have criticized the concept of heritability as misleading or meaningless. Douglas Wahlsten and Gilbert Gottlieb argue that the prevailing models of behavioral genetics are too simplistic by not accounting for gene-environment interactions. Stephen Ceci also highlights the issues with this assumption, noting that they were raised by Jane Loevinger in 1943. They assert that the idea of partitioning variance makes no sense when environments and genes interact and argue that such interaction is ubiquitous in human development. They highlight their belief that heritability analysis requires a hidden assumption they call the "separation of causes", which isn't borne out by biological reality or experimental research. Such researchers argue that the notion of heritability gives the false impression that "genes have some direct and isolated influence on traits", rather than another developmental resource that a complex system uses over the course of ontogeny." Since this is a US-centered forum, this also seems relevant: "In the US, individuals identifying themselves as Asian generally tend to score higher on IQ tests than Caucasians, who tend to score higher than Hispanics, who tend to score higher than African Americans. Yet, although IQ differences between individuals have been shown to have a large hereditary component, it does not follow that between-group differences in average IQ have a genetic basis. In fact, greater variation in IQ scores exists within each ethnic group than between them. The scientific consensus is that genetics does not explain average differences in IQ test performance between racial groups. Growing evidence indicates that environmental factors, not genetic ones, explain the racial IQ gap."
  - whimsicalism 1y ago
    you seem to have taught yourself explicitly incorrect intuitions about how the world works, why? the vast majority of people know that kids resemble parents, it seems extreme to believe otherwise.
- nitwit005 1y ago
  They gave up on the traditional IQ test questions for the most part. The ASVAB (Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery) is mostly a knowledge test now. You can find sample questions online. There is still a section on spatial reasoning, which is trying to get at a general mental ability.
  - thaumasiotes 1y ago
    You qualify based on the AFQT, which is a composite of four ASVAB subtests. Specifically, the Word Knowledge, Paragraph Comprehension, Arithmetic Reasoning, and Mathematics Knowledge subtests. Sample questions: (identify the best synonym for the underlined word) His record provides no reason for _apprehension_. [ ] anxiety [ ] change [ ] enjoyment [ ] endorsement According to the passage, some artists work with titanium because it [ ] is transparent. [ ] does not corrode. [ ] generates its own heat. [ ] can assume a variety of colors. One in every 9 people in a town votes for party A. All others vote for party B. How many people vote for party B in a town of 810? [ ] 90 [ ] 720 [ ] 801 [ ] 819 The ratio 36 : 12 is the same as [ ] 2 : 1 [ ] 3 : 1 [ ] 4 : 1 [ ] 5 : 1 You might notice that this is obviously an IQ test. What were you thinking? (Source of all questions, and the definition of the AFQT: www.officialasvab.com )
    - nitwit005 1y ago
      You'll notice, that is basically your ability to read and do math, which is rather different than the content of a typical IQ test. People have apparently done research on adding more IQ test sections in: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2211368120300292 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S22113...
      - thaumasiotes 1y ago
        > that is basically your ability to read and do math, which is rather different than the content of a typical IQ test. No, it isn't different. Do you know what an IQ test looks like?

thaumasiotes 1y ago

The military imposes strict IQ thresholds on those seeking to join. That's the point of the Armed Forces Qualifying Test.

duskwuff 1y ago
DoDEA teaches the children of military families, not the enlisted themselves.
- lmm 1y ago
  While it's fashionable to pretend otherwise, the best available evidence is that inheritance is highly heritable.
  - zevon 1y ago
    Correlations between socioeconomic status and success of one's offspring in educational systems don't mean that intelligence is inherited in the genetic sense. If you're seriously arguing this, you're very close to flirting with eugenics and the like.
    - Dylan16807 1y ago
      > If you're seriously arguing this, you're very close to flirting with eugenics and the like. Please don't be so eager to reject eugenics that you end up being anti-science. The idea that some percent of intelligence is genetic is entirely reasonable, not something to refuse to consider. And there's good evidence too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ
      - zevon 1y ago
        I did not say nor mean to imply that genetics do not have anything to do with IQ or intelligence. Also, context matters - this is a thread about how to structure educational environments and about certain specifics of the military. Genetics are a factor that is going to be of limited practical use in this domain, at least as far as I can fantasize OTOH.
        Dylan16807 1y ago
        > I did not say nor mean to imply that genetics do not have anything to do with IQ or intelligence. Please explain what "Correlations between socioeconomic status and success of one's offspring in educational systems don't mean that intelligence is inherited in the genetic sense." means because it sure looks like an argument that the genetic component isn't real. Especially because you posted that in response to someone talking about heritability in very general terms, so your comment can't be interpreted as a nitpick about which evidence goes where. And I can't think of any third interpretation. > this is a thread about how to structure educational environments and about certain specifics of the military The idea being presented is that it's easier to run good schools when you have smarter students with smarter parents. So the inheritability of intelligence over a single generation is critical to the argument.
        zevon 1y ago
        Maybe what I actually meant to express becomes more clear if I re-phrase and expand the the sentence a bit: Correlations between socioeconomic status and success of one's offspring in educational systems does not mean that you can determine genetics as a relevant factor when thinking about how to structure education and if one is interested in the relationship between success (on whatever metric) in education and family trees. I'm neither a geneticist nor is English my first language but I've always understood "heritability" to be a term that very much has to do with genetics and the Wikipedia link you provided implies the same. If we are talking about other factors/mechanisms that impact success in educational systems and that express themselves over generations and in family structures - sure, that's basically what I'm saying. --- (Long) edit after a cup of tea and a sandwich spent over the Wikipedia-Link you provided: I must say, I think that's pretty readable even for me as a non-geneticist. In the context of this thread, there is a lot of interesting info about "Heritability and caveats", "Influences" and "Environmental effects". I've highlighted these quotes for myself while reading: "Although IQ differences between individuals have been shown to have a hereditary component, it does not follow that disparities in IQ between groups have a genetic basis." "Heritability measures the proportion of variation in a trait that can be attributed to genes, and not the proportion of a trait caused by genes." "Contrary to popular belief, two parents of higher IQ will not necessarily produce offspring of equal or higher intelligence. Polygenic traits often appear less heritable at the extremes." The whole section on "Implications": "Some researchers, especially those that work in fields like developmental systems theory, have criticized the concept of heritability as misleading or meaningless. Douglas Wahlsten and Gilbert Gottlieb argue that the prevailing models of behavioral genetics are too simplistic by not accounting for gene-environment interactions. Stephen Ceci also highlights the issues with this assumption, noting that they were raised by Jane Loevinger in 1943. They assert that the idea of partitioning variance makes no sense when environments and genes interact and argue that such interaction is ubiquitous in human development. They highlight their belief that heritability analysis requires a hidden assumption they call the "separation of causes", which isn't borne out by biological reality or experimental research. Such researchers argue that the notion of heritability gives the false impression that "genes have some direct and isolated influence on traits", rather than another developmental resource that a complex system uses over the course of ontogeny." Since this is a US-centered forum, this also seems relevant: "In the US, individuals identifying themselves as Asian generally tend to score higher on IQ tests than Caucasians, who tend to score higher than Hispanics, who tend to score higher than African Americans. Yet, although IQ differences between individuals have been shown to have a large hereditary component, it does not follow that between-group differences in average IQ have a genetic basis. In fact, greater variation in IQ scores exists within each ethnic group than between them. The scientific consensus is that genetics does not explain average differences in IQ test performance between racial groups. Growing evidence indicates that environmental factors, not genetic ones, explain the racial IQ gap."
- whimsicalism 1y ago
  you seem to have taught yourself explicitly incorrect intuitions about how the world works, why? the vast majority of people know that kids resemble parents, it seems extreme to believe otherwise.
nitwit005 1y ago
They gave up on the traditional IQ test questions for the most part. The ASVAB (Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery) is mostly a knowledge test now. You can find sample questions online. There is still a section on spatial reasoning, which is trying to get at a general mental ability.
- thaumasiotes 1y ago
  You qualify based on the AFQT, which is a composite of four ASVAB subtests. Specifically, the Word Knowledge, Paragraph Comprehension, Arithmetic Reasoning, and Mathematics Knowledge subtests. Sample questions: (identify the best synonym for the underlined word) His record provides no reason for _apprehension_. [ ] anxiety [ ] change [ ] enjoyment [ ] endorsement According to the passage, some artists work with titanium because it [ ] is transparent. [ ] does not corrode. [ ] generates its own heat. [ ] can assume a variety of colors. One in every 9 people in a town votes for party A. All others vote for party B. How many people vote for party B in a town of 810? [ ] 90 [ ] 720 [ ] 801 [ ] 819 The ratio 36 : 12 is the same as [ ] 2 : 1 [ ] 3 : 1 [ ] 4 : 1 [ ] 5 : 1 You might notice that this is obviously an IQ test. What were you thinking? (Source of all questions, and the definition of the AFQT: www.officialasvab.com )
  - nitwit005 1y ago
    You'll notice, that is basically your ability to read and do math, which is rather different than the content of a typical IQ test. People have apparently done research on adding more IQ test sections in: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2211368120300292 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S22113...
    - thaumasiotes 1y ago
      > that is basically your ability to read and do math, which is rather different than the content of a typical IQ test. No, it isn't different. Do you know what an IQ test looks like?