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I think it's counterproductive to provide Chromebooks and iPads to students, but the "excessive use of screens" in my experience is by and large a parenting iss

I think it's counterproductive to provide Chromebooks and iPads to students, but the "excessive use of screens" in my experience is by and large a parenting issue. And it's not just about boundaries around devices, like time limits or app restrictions. It's about setting the right example and providing an environment where reading a book is as stimulating and desirable and encouraged as playing a game every once in a while on an iPad. It's telling that the second part of your sentence applies equally well to adults as children. And children cannot be held accountable for poor habits that are largely a consequence of their environment.

coliveira 1y ago
> the second part of your sentence applies equally well to adults as children You're right, and we see this everywhere. But at least adults already learned how to read, so this is not something that will stop their development during their critical formative years.
- ocschwar 1y ago
  It's true, but it's cold comfort. the amount of reading I can do in a single sitting has declined a lot.
aeternum 1y ago
The screens thing is a diversion. The core issue is that it's nearly illegal to discipline students now. There's a socioeconomic divide because child behavior is unfortunately negatively correlated to socioeconomics. Thus poor schools suffer more from the lack of ability for teachers to remove disruptive students. Yes some excellent teachers are sometimes able to deal with it, most cannot.
- actionfromafar 1y ago
  I think the drop is an almost worldwide thing and not correlated very much to disciplining. Disciplining varies, the screens and the slop are universal.
  - cudgy 1y ago
    This is an interesting take. Based on what you’re saying, then I presume that in India and China academic performance is dropping as well?
    - disgruntledphd2 1y ago
      According to PISA results, it seems that the US does worse on maths on average, but pretty close on reading relative to UK and Ireland. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/pisa-scores-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/pisa-scor... There's probably a much better data source, but am on phone.
      - cudgy 1y ago
        For the purposes of determining the effect of screen time on education, we would need to compare the performance of Chinese or Indian students over time along with a measurable increase of the use of screens and compare that to say American students. Simply comparing American students to Chinese or Indian students is not sufficient.
        disgruntledphd2 1y ago
        Yes, I agree, hence my point that this wasn't the right data. It was better than nothing though.
- alephnerd 1y ago
  In the upper income public school my mom teaches at here in the Bay, the "problem kids" are overwhelmingly classified as low-med severity special ed for that reason - it solves the disruption problem while reducing the need to deal with Karens Interestingly, in my mom's experience, kids from immigrant backgrounds (working class or undocumented Latinos bussed in and Asian Americans from all economic strata) never get in trouble. It's only the "American" parents that try to overstep on educators toes for "disciplining" kids.
  - cudgy 1y ago
    maybe it’s not about race. Maybe it’s because the parents of the kids that are bussed-in are less confident to push back out of fear that their kids would lose the privilege of being bussed-in to the “better” school?
    - alephnerd 1y ago
      The part of Santa Clara County I'm talking about used to be lower middle class until the mid-2010s. The Latiné and Asian kids aren't "bussed". Meanwhile, a large portion of African American kids are though. White Americans who aren't 1-2 gen and the African Americans tend to have parents that push back on educators (as did the small amount of 2nd gen and older Asian Americans and Latiné American households - hence why I said "American").
      - cudgy 1y ago
        Weird. Why are no Latin or Asian kids bussed?
        alephnerd 1y ago
        Because we live in these neighborhoods. California is not like the rest of the US. The racial dynamics are different, and immigrant families from poorer backgrounds are fine paying extremely high premiums or even rent out a garage to live within in order to send their kids to top school districts. "American" families don't do that. On top of that, utilizing public services is viewed negatively in the American naturalization process, as it can be contested that an applicant is at risk of becoming a "public charge". Additionally, the moment a neighborhood becomes too "Asian" or "Latino" in the Bay, all the White and Black families who can afford to end up leaving, and those who remain complain about us "changing the character" of our neighborhoods or "being too competitive". The Western US (Dallas westwards) has an entirely different racial and ethnic dynamic from the rest of the US. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_charge_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_charge_rule

coliveira 1y ago

> the second part of your sentence applies equally well to adults as children You're right, and we see this everywhere. But at least adults already learned how to read, so this is not something that will stop their development during their critical formative years.

ocschwar 1y ago
It's true, but it's cold comfort. the amount of reading I can do in a single sitting has declined a lot.

aeternum 1y ago

The screens thing is a diversion. The core issue is that it's nearly illegal to discipline students now. There's a socioeconomic divide because child behavior is unfortunately negatively correlated to socioeconomics. Thus poor schools suffer more from the lack of ability for teachers to remove disruptive students. Yes some excellent teachers are sometimes able to deal with it, most cannot.

actionfromafar 1y ago
I think the drop is an almost worldwide thing and not correlated very much to disciplining. Disciplining varies, the screens and the slop are universal.
- cudgy 1y ago
  This is an interesting take. Based on what you’re saying, then I presume that in India and China academic performance is dropping as well?
  - disgruntledphd2 1y ago
    According to PISA results, it seems that the US does worse on maths on average, but pretty close on reading relative to UK and Ireland. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/pisa-scores-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/pisa-scor... There's probably a much better data source, but am on phone.
    - cudgy 1y ago
      For the purposes of determining the effect of screen time on education, we would need to compare the performance of Chinese or Indian students over time along with a measurable increase of the use of screens and compare that to say American students. Simply comparing American students to Chinese or Indian students is not sufficient.
      - disgruntledphd2 1y ago
        Yes, I agree, hence my point that this wasn't the right data. It was better than nothing though.
alephnerd 1y ago
In the upper income public school my mom teaches at here in the Bay, the "problem kids" are overwhelmingly classified as low-med severity special ed for that reason - it solves the disruption problem while reducing the need to deal with Karens Interestingly, in my mom's experience, kids from immigrant backgrounds (working class or undocumented Latinos bussed in and Asian Americans from all economic strata) never get in trouble. It's only the "American" parents that try to overstep on educators toes for "disciplining" kids.
- cudgy 1y ago
  maybe it’s not about race. Maybe it’s because the parents of the kids that are bussed-in are less confident to push back out of fear that their kids would lose the privilege of being bussed-in to the “better” school?
  - alephnerd 1y ago
    The part of Santa Clara County I'm talking about used to be lower middle class until the mid-2010s. The Latiné and Asian kids aren't "bussed". Meanwhile, a large portion of African American kids are though. White Americans who aren't 1-2 gen and the African Americans tend to have parents that push back on educators (as did the small amount of 2nd gen and older Asian Americans and Latiné American households - hence why I said "American").
    - cudgy 1y ago
      Weird. Why are no Latin or Asian kids bussed?
      - alephnerd 1y ago
        Because we live in these neighborhoods. California is not like the rest of the US. The racial dynamics are different, and immigrant families from poorer backgrounds are fine paying extremely high premiums or even rent out a garage to live within in order to send their kids to top school districts. "American" families don't do that. On top of that, utilizing public services is viewed negatively in the American naturalization process, as it can be contested that an applicant is at risk of becoming a "public charge". Additionally, the moment a neighborhood becomes too "Asian" or "Latino" in the Bay, all the White and Black families who can afford to end up leaving, and those who remain complain about us "changing the character" of our neighborhoods or "being too competitive". The Western US (Dallas westwards) has an entirely different racial and ethnic dynamic from the rest of the US. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_charge_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_charge_rule