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I’m not in a rush to use a reimplementation of SQLite — particularly from startup bros that had a very public, one-sided, and unpleasant fight with SQLite over

I’m not in a rush to use a reimplementation of SQLite — particularly from startup bros that had a very public, one-sided, and unpleasant fight with SQLite over their contribution model. D. Richard Hipp is a genuinely fantastic human being, and SQLite is a project developed at literally the level of planetary infrastructure given how broadly and everywhere it appears. Forking his project while using the name to garner recognition and attention is poor form, and it is difficult to have faith in the results.

bitpush 1y ago
I get where you're coming from, but isnt the whole idea of open source "if you dont like the approach, you're free to fork the code and do it the way you think is right?" As long as the fork doesnt violate trademark (turso vs sqlite) it is working-as-intended? I, for one, encourage this kind of behavior. We should have more forks. More forks = more competition = better results for everyone. --- To make an analogy. Would you say the same thing if this were a for-profit company? "I cant believe someone else is competing the same space as $x. $x is hugely successful, and so many people use it. I dont know why there's an alternative"
- immibis 1y ago
  Both forking sqlite, and disliking the forking of sqlite, are allowed. Plus, it's just technically bad. Most cases where you'd want to scale up sqlite are better served by a client/server database.
  - pod_krad 1y ago
    >Most cases But not all of them, right? I don't need scaling across different hosts, but I need scaling between different threads on the same host. And I don't want for that PostgreSQL, MySQL, Oracle an other stuff like that.
stronglikedan 1y ago
> Forking his project while using the name The don't use the name. They use Turso. Even the HN title is wrong - the article title doesn't mention SQLite. They refer to SQLite, but how could you not if that's what you forked from, and that's what has the functionality you're changing. That would be a very weird article if we didn't have that context.
- frumplestlatz 1y ago
  They state, plainly on their home page: “The next evolution of SQLite” That is a material misrepresentation and absolutely trading on the SQLite name
  - bitpush 1y ago
    “The next evolution of SQLite” How? The whole point of trademark is to avoid confusing users that an alternate product is the same as the original product. By explicitly saying "Next evolution of SQLite", or "A fork of SQLite", or a "Better SQLite" .. all of this is saying our product is distinct and different from SQLite. If the fork were called "nue-sqlite" or "sqlitest" or "fastsqlite", there's an argument to be made.
    - frumplestlatz 1y ago
      The issue isn’t that you’re mentioning SQLite or acknowledging that it’s a fork. The problem is that the phrase “the next evolution of SQLite” conveys continuity and endorsement. A reasonable reader could conclude that Turso is an official successor or the next release of SQLite — that it represents the official lineage of the project. Phrasing like “SQLite-compatible,” or “a fork of SQLite” would be clear and factual. Calling it “the next evolution of SQLite” isn’t factual; it’s marketing positioning, and it implies ownership of SQLite’s identity and lineage. This reflects a broader pattern in how the fork has been presented publicly. The messaging often treats the original project as something to be fixed rather than a foundation to be respected. Referring to Turso as a product while leveraging the SQLite name reinforces that framing — co-opting a public-domain engineering gift into a commercial asset.
Permik 1y ago
I'd still give them the benefit of the doubt as most (all?) of the contributors are Finns who you can almost guarantee to have a "no bullshit" type of mentality to essentially everything. And what I'd guess, the team most probably has quite an academic background because of the local culture.
- glommer 1y ago
  Pekka is a Finn, and there are other Finns as well, but not all of us are Finns. Our Finns are also not the standard Finns. I know Pekka closely for 15 years, and he smiled 3 times.
glommer 1y ago
Author of Turso here. Couple of points * You are right not to rush. You should keep using SQLite until Turso matures. Some use cases are more tolerant to new tech than others. It will take time for us to reach the level of trust SQLite has for broad use cases, but we are hoping to add value for some use cases right away. Never rush, tech matters! * I have never met Hipp, but only heard great things about him. * We never had a fight with SQLite over their contribution model (or about anything for that matter, I never even met Hipp or anybody else from SQLite). We just disagree with it - in the sense that we believe in different things. We don't think what they do is fundamentally wrong. Different projects take different paths. * We are not using the SQLite name. We compare ourselves to SQLite because we are file and API compatible, and we do aspire to raise the very high bar they have set. It is hard to do this without drawing the comparison, but we are a different project and state it very clearly. I am not a lawyer (and neither you seem to be), but we believe we are doing is okay. If we ever have any valid reason to believe we crossed a line here, we will of course change course. * We are not "startup bros". We spent 20+ years of our lives building databases and operating systems.
- frumplestlatz 1y ago
  I wasn’t describing a legal dispute, and I haven’t made any claim about infringement. “Material misrepresentation” refers to the substance of the public messaging, not to a legal violation. The issue I raised is that the phrasing and the way the fork has been presented create the impression of continuity and endorsement that doesn’t exist. That’s a reputational and ethical concern, not a legal debate. Calling it “the next evolution of SQLite” is, in practice, absolutely trading on the SQLite name. There was a very public, one-sided disagreement about SQLite’s contribution model at the time, and you’ve been open about your criticisms of SQLite in the years since. That’s the context for my comment; it isn’t something I’ve imagined.
  - glommer 1y ago
    I understood your criticism. I disagree with it, and I think we are not misrepresenting anything, as we make it very clear that we are not SQLite, we are just a reimplementation that goes beyond it (evolution). The disagreement about their contribution model of course happened, but the meaning you ascribe to it, perhaps is something you imagined. It boils down to what you understand "criticism" to be. If I see someone doing something wrong, I will criticize them. That certainly never happened. What happened is that we pointed out pros and cons of an open and closed development model. We believe a piece of technology that plays the role of SQLite would benefit from having an open model. And exactly because they are absolutely not doing nothing wrong with not being open, we created our own thing. Hard to see how that is a "criticism". I said that a billion times, and here's a billion and one: there's absolutely nothing wrong with a closed model. SQLite is doing nothing wrong. They contributed tremendously to the databases we used every day. I do think an Open model yields so many benefits that should someone rewrite SQLite with an open model, even starting 20 years later, they would end up ahead. There is now a very easy way to prove or disprove this particular hypothesis. Stay tuned!
hitekker 1y ago
One ugly thing I remember was the insinuation that SQLite was somehow immoral. Glauber Costa attacked SQLite[1] with lines like: > We take our code of conduct seriously, and unlike SQLite, we do not substitute it with an unclear alternative. We strive to foster a community that values diversity, equity, and inclusion. We encourage others to speak up if they feel uncomfortable. Sometime after the HN backlash[2], that paragraph was removed. Eventually, Turso released https://github.com/tursodatabase/turso https://github.com/tursodatabase/turso without a code of conduct and hasn't had one since. For me, the saddest part of the affair is that Richard Hipp and Glauber are both committed Christians. There should be no reason for envy, enmity, or memory games. But when business and money was on the table, it seems only one of them followed Jesus. [1] https://github.com/tursodatabase/libsql/commit/3ac3ad263c0f09284d85bc74db0c31e322ffb8af https://github.com/tursodatabase/libsql/commit/3ac3ad263c0f0... https://web.archive.org/web/20221004144141/https://glaubercosta-11125.medium.com/sqlite-qemu-all-over-again-aedad19c9a1c https://web.archive.org/web/20221004144141/https://glauberco... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33081159 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33081159
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- glommer 1y ago
  What you are pointing to did happen. What you are forgetting to mention is that this was one phrase in a post that was otherwise singing their praises. The charitable interpretation is that when people pointed this out, I have read it, and come to agree that the wording was too strong and not representative of what we wanted to convey. Therefore, it was taken down. But why be charitable when one can just throw accusations around from the armchair towards people one barely knows ? The one thing you are right about, is that I am failing to live up to the Lord. As much as I try, I keep falling short. It happens not only here but in all aspects of my life. If it wasn't for his grace I would be in Hell for sure.
  - hitekker 1y ago
    Glauber, your memory is off. That line of attack was not in your blogpost; it's in your now-deleted manifesto, the README.md of libsql[1]. It was a strong statement of intent, praising the software and campaigning against the maintainers. "SQLite needs to open contributions" was a spat you started in front of HN's eyes, and are now denying[2] for reasons I can only guess at. That's the reality that myself and others observed. Of course, you can take that — all of this — as an accusation. You can choose a narrative that's kinder towards you. The question I'd ask myself is if Jesus really wants to hear our storytelling, or if he wants to see us repent. That said: on certain key aspects of life, I think you're at least closer to the Lord than I am. So Godspeed to you on your journey. [1] https://github.com/tursodatabase/libsql/blob/3ac3ad263c0f09284d85bc74db0c31e322ffb8af/README.md https://github.com/tursodatabase/libsql/blob/3ac3ad263c0f092... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45586331 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45586331

bitpush 1y ago

I get where you're coming from, but isnt the whole idea of open source "if you dont like the approach, you're free to fork the code and do it the way you think is right?" As long as the fork doesnt violate trademark (turso vs sqlite) it is working-as-intended? I, for one, encourage this kind of behavior. We should have more forks. More forks = more competition = better results for everyone. --- To make an analogy. Would you say the same thing if this were a for-profit company? "I cant believe someone else is competing the same space as $x. $x is hugely successful, and so many people use it. I dont know why there's an alternative"

immibis 1y ago
Both forking sqlite, and disliking the forking of sqlite, are allowed. Plus, it's just technically bad. Most cases where you'd want to scale up sqlite are better served by a client/server database.
- pod_krad 1y ago
  >Most cases But not all of them, right? I don't need scaling across different hosts, but I need scaling between different threads on the same host. And I don't want for that PostgreSQL, MySQL, Oracle an other stuff like that.

stronglikedan 1y ago

> Forking his project while using the name The don't use the name. They use Turso. Even the HN title is wrong - the article title doesn't mention SQLite. They refer to SQLite, but how could you not if that's what you forked from, and that's what has the functionality you're changing. That would be a very weird article if we didn't have that context.

frumplestlatz 1y ago
They state, plainly on their home page: “The next evolution of SQLite” That is a material misrepresentation and absolutely trading on the SQLite name
- bitpush 1y ago
  “The next evolution of SQLite” How? The whole point of trademark is to avoid confusing users that an alternate product is the same as the original product. By explicitly saying "Next evolution of SQLite", or "A fork of SQLite", or a "Better SQLite" .. all of this is saying our product is distinct and different from SQLite. If the fork were called "nue-sqlite" or "sqlitest" or "fastsqlite", there's an argument to be made.
  - frumplestlatz 1y ago
    The issue isn’t that you’re mentioning SQLite or acknowledging that it’s a fork. The problem is that the phrase “the next evolution of SQLite” conveys continuity and endorsement. A reasonable reader could conclude that Turso is an official successor or the next release of SQLite — that it represents the official lineage of the project. Phrasing like “SQLite-compatible,” or “a fork of SQLite” would be clear and factual. Calling it “the next evolution of SQLite” isn’t factual; it’s marketing positioning, and it implies ownership of SQLite’s identity and lineage. This reflects a broader pattern in how the fork has been presented publicly. The messaging often treats the original project as something to be fixed rather than a foundation to be respected. Referring to Turso as a product while leveraging the SQLite name reinforces that framing — co-opting a public-domain engineering gift into a commercial asset.

Permik 1y ago

I'd still give them the benefit of the doubt as most (all?) of the contributors are Finns who you can almost guarantee to have a "no bullshit" type of mentality to essentially everything. And what I'd guess, the team most probably has quite an academic background because of the local culture.

glommer 1y ago
Pekka is a Finn, and there are other Finns as well, but not all of us are Finns. Our Finns are also not the standard Finns. I know Pekka closely for 15 years, and he smiled 3 times.

glommer 1y ago

Author of Turso here. Couple of points * You are right not to rush. You should keep using SQLite until Turso matures. Some use cases are more tolerant to new tech than others. It will take time for us to reach the level of trust SQLite has for broad use cases, but we are hoping to add value for some use cases right away. Never rush, tech matters! * I have never met Hipp, but only heard great things about him. * We never had a fight with SQLite over their contribution model (or about anything for that matter, I never even met Hipp or anybody else from SQLite). We just disagree with it - in the sense that we believe in different things. We don't think what they do is fundamentally wrong. Different projects take different paths. * We are not using the SQLite name. We compare ourselves to SQLite because we are file and API compatible, and we do aspire to raise the very high bar they have set. It is hard to do this without drawing the comparison, but we are a different project and state it very clearly. I am not a lawyer (and neither you seem to be), but we believe we are doing is okay. If we ever have any valid reason to believe we crossed a line here, we will of course change course. * We are not "startup bros". We spent 20+ years of our lives building databases and operating systems.

frumplestlatz 1y ago
I wasn’t describing a legal dispute, and I haven’t made any claim about infringement. “Material misrepresentation” refers to the substance of the public messaging, not to a legal violation. The issue I raised is that the phrasing and the way the fork has been presented create the impression of continuity and endorsement that doesn’t exist. That’s a reputational and ethical concern, not a legal debate. Calling it “the next evolution of SQLite” is, in practice, absolutely trading on the SQLite name. There was a very public, one-sided disagreement about SQLite’s contribution model at the time, and you’ve been open about your criticisms of SQLite in the years since. That’s the context for my comment; it isn’t something I’ve imagined.
- glommer 1y ago
  I understood your criticism. I disagree with it, and I think we are not misrepresenting anything, as we make it very clear that we are not SQLite, we are just a reimplementation that goes beyond it (evolution). The disagreement about their contribution model of course happened, but the meaning you ascribe to it, perhaps is something you imagined. It boils down to what you understand "criticism" to be. If I see someone doing something wrong, I will criticize them. That certainly never happened. What happened is that we pointed out pros and cons of an open and closed development model. We believe a piece of technology that plays the role of SQLite would benefit from having an open model. And exactly because they are absolutely not doing nothing wrong with not being open, we created our own thing. Hard to see how that is a "criticism". I said that a billion times, and here's a billion and one: there's absolutely nothing wrong with a closed model. SQLite is doing nothing wrong. They contributed tremendously to the databases we used every day. I do think an Open model yields so many benefits that should someone rewrite SQLite with an open model, even starting 20 years later, they would end up ahead. There is now a very easy way to prove or disprove this particular hypothesis. Stay tuned!

hitekker 1y ago

One ugly thing I remember was the insinuation that SQLite was somehow immoral. Glauber Costa attacked SQLite[1] with lines like: > We take our code of conduct seriously, and unlike SQLite, we do not substitute it with an unclear alternative. We strive to foster a community that values diversity, equity, and inclusion. We encourage others to speak up if they feel uncomfortable. Sometime after the HN backlash[2], that paragraph was removed. Eventually, Turso released https://github.com/tursodatabase/turso https://github.com/tursodatabase/turso without a code of conduct and hasn't had one since. For me, the saddest part of the affair is that Richard Hipp and Glauber are both committed Christians. There should be no reason for envy, enmity, or memory games. But when business and money was on the table, it seems only one of them followed Jesus. [1] https://github.com/tursodatabase/libsql/commit/3ac3ad263c0f09284d85bc74db0c31e322ffb8af https://github.com/tursodatabase/libsql/commit/3ac3ad263c0f0... https://web.archive.org/web/20221004144141/https://glaubercosta-11125.medium.com/sqlite-qemu-all-over-again-aedad19c9a1c https://web.archive.org/web/20221004144141/https://glauberco... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33081159 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33081159

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
glommer 1y ago
What you are pointing to did happen. What you are forgetting to mention is that this was one phrase in a post that was otherwise singing their praises. The charitable interpretation is that when people pointed this out, I have read it, and come to agree that the wording was too strong and not representative of what we wanted to convey. Therefore, it was taken down. But why be charitable when one can just throw accusations around from the armchair towards people one barely knows ? The one thing you are right about, is that I am failing to live up to the Lord. As much as I try, I keep falling short. It happens not only here but in all aspects of my life. If it wasn't for his grace I would be in Hell for sure.
- hitekker 1y ago
  Glauber, your memory is off. That line of attack was not in your blogpost; it's in your now-deleted manifesto, the README.md of libsql[1]. It was a strong statement of intent, praising the software and campaigning against the maintainers. "SQLite needs to open contributions" was a spat you started in front of HN's eyes, and are now denying[2] for reasons I can only guess at. That's the reality that myself and others observed. Of course, you can take that — all of this — as an accusation. You can choose a narrative that's kinder towards you. The question I'd ask myself is if Jesus really wants to hear our storytelling, or if he wants to see us repent. That said: on certain key aspects of life, I think you're at least closer to the Lord than I am. So Godspeed to you on your journey. [1] https://github.com/tursodatabase/libsql/blob/3ac3ad263c0f09284d85bc74db0c31e322ffb8af/README.md https://github.com/tursodatabase/libsql/blob/3ac3ad263c0f092... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45586331 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45586331