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EDIT: Original parent was "Every company does this." Not Mullvad. Swedish police showed up looking for some dat, Mullvad didn't even collect what they wanted,

EDIT: Original parent was "Every company does this." Not Mullvad. Swedish police showed up looking for some dat, Mullvad didn't even collect what they wanted, police left empty handed.

kube-system 1y ago
Yes -- even Mullvad -- which is precisely why they do not collect the data. Because if they did have the data, they would have to give it over, or they could go to prison.
- dylan604 1y ago
  who goes to prison, the whole company? What does Swedish law have of sending corporate employees to prison? Is it something we can import?
  - kube-system 1y ago
    Typically, courts will summon a specific person to comply with their request, often a corporate officer or director with a role or authority relevant to what is being requested. If they don't comply with their request, they can be held in contempt. The specifics vary by country, but basically all legal systems require you to comply with what they say and impose penalties if you don't. I don't know if there are any countries where it's legal to ignore the courts, but I would imagine that their court systems don't work too well.
  - navigate8310 1y ago
    Typically that would require uncovering the veil of the corporation and usually a limited company has safety provisions against these egregious acts.
    - kube-system 1y ago
      Courts, in the US at least, can hold an officer of a corporation personally responsible for violating a subpoena order, if they were in a position to comply with it and chose not to. It's not technically a piercing of the corporate veil (because they are being personally ordered to comply), but it's effectively the same thing. See Wilson v. United States https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/221/361/ https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/221/361/
- throw7tugyh 1y ago
  [dead]
freejazz 1y ago
It is true that one cannot produce the data that one does not collect. I'm not sure that is a revelation.
- ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
  It is, with this crowd, where data is currency. I literally have solitaire games, trying to get me to create server accounts, so that the authors can extract PiD from me. Tech is full of people that make extremely good money, from other people's personal information, and they plug their ears and sing "La-la-laaaa-I-can't-hear-yooouuu-la-la-la", when confronted with information that says what they are doing has problems. Not just techhies. That's fairly basic human nature. This is pretty much the embodiment of Upton Sinclair's quote: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." For my part, I don't collect any data that I don't need; even if it makes it more difficult to do stuff like administer a server.
  - freejazz 1y ago
    It's only a problem if you don't want to be legally obligated to produce it. Either way, probably paying lawyer time for a response. Not that I disagree with you at all.
    - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
      It's also a problem if you actually care about your users, and don't want to expose their data, in ways that could -literally- end up putting their lives in danger.
      - freejazz 1y ago
        I'm but a mere lawyer, not a godly developer.
        ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago

EDIT: Original parent was "Every company does this." Not Mullvad. Swedish police showed up looking for some dat, Mullvad didn't even collect what they wanted, police left empty handed.

kube-system 1y ago

Yes -- even Mullvad -- which is precisely why they do not collect the data. Because if they did have the data, they would have to give it over, or they could go to prison.

dylan604 1y ago
who goes to prison, the whole company? What does Swedish law have of sending corporate employees to prison? Is it something we can import?
- kube-system 1y ago
  Typically, courts will summon a specific person to comply with their request, often a corporate officer or director with a role or authority relevant to what is being requested. If they don't comply with their request, they can be held in contempt. The specifics vary by country, but basically all legal systems require you to comply with what they say and impose penalties if you don't. I don't know if there are any countries where it's legal to ignore the courts, but I would imagine that their court systems don't work too well.
- navigate8310 1y ago
  Typically that would require uncovering the veil of the corporation and usually a limited company has safety provisions against these egregious acts.
  - kube-system 1y ago
    Courts, in the US at least, can hold an officer of a corporation personally responsible for violating a subpoena order, if they were in a position to comply with it and chose not to. It's not technically a piercing of the corporate veil (because they are being personally ordered to comply), but it's effectively the same thing. See Wilson v. United States https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/221/361/ https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/221/361/
throw7tugyh 1y ago
[dead]

freejazz 1y ago

It is true that one cannot produce the data that one does not collect. I'm not sure that is a revelation.

ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
It is, with this crowd, where data is currency. I literally have solitaire games, trying to get me to create server accounts, so that the authors can extract PiD from me. Tech is full of people that make extremely good money, from other people's personal information, and they plug their ears and sing "La-la-laaaa-I-can't-hear-yooouuu-la-la-la", when confronted with information that says what they are doing has problems. Not just techhies. That's fairly basic human nature. This is pretty much the embodiment of Upton Sinclair's quote: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." For my part, I don't collect any data that I don't need; even if it makes it more difficult to do stuff like administer a server.
- freejazz 1y ago
  It's only a problem if you don't want to be legally obligated to produce it. Either way, probably paying lawyer time for a response. Not that I disagree with you at all.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
    It's also a problem if you actually care about your users, and don't want to expose their data, in ways that could -literally- end up putting their lives in danger.
    - freejazz 1y ago
      I'm but a mere lawyer, not a godly developer.
      - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago