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How do you roll back a fatal car accident caused by the faulty update? Giving user’s control over when the update runs allows them to be in a safe and secure s

How do you roll back a fatal car accident caused by the faulty update? Giving user’s control over when the update runs allows them to be in a safe and secure setting when that update happens. Allowing them time, gives them and Jeep the ability to slow roll the update so they can halt it if initial feedback is negative. I say this as a Mac user who does not allow auto updates for MacOS. I wait a week or so until the chatter validates it as non-breaking. They pushed an OS update several years ago that broke a few things I rely on. So I don’t trust them now, but these things just happen on OS’s with third party software. I expect it. But, I also don’t want to be forced to deal with the headaches immediately. I’d rather let the third parties run updates and advise how to deal, before I have to dive into fixing things. With car firmware, there’s really no excuse for this except poor engineering / processes.

tremon 1y ago
Giving user’s control over when the update runs allows them to be in a safe and secure setting when that update happens FTFA: > The buggy update doesn't appear to brick the car immediately. Instead, the failure appears to occur while driving — a far more serious problem And from the GP upthread: > There is no way to tell if you received the bad update. > There is no way to tell if you received the 'fix' either.
- conductr 1y ago
  Good points, I did miss those. However, if I had this vehicle and I was reading this article today - and had the ability I'm asking for - I would just keep my current version running until they figure this mess out. It's the advantage of letting other people run the updates first, you get to hear about issues before you experience them.
deepsun 1y ago
> user who does not allow auto updates for MacOS. Many security compliances require auto-updates to be on. It's thought of to be a lesser evil, because many (most) users never update their OS/browsers, which is worse.
- conductr 1y ago
  The point is it’s up to the device owner to make their own risk calculation instead of the benevolent manufacturer
  - rk06 1y ago
    the point was that manufacture is forced to have auto update enabled in name of security compliance. so, this issue needs to be solved by compliance first
    - conductr 1y ago
      This is a hypothetical in this situation, car manufacturers are under no such obligation. Also, rules like this tend to get reversed once the true risk is realized- people dying that is. We do all kinds of things for very marginal improvements to security these days
    - deepsun 1y ago
      Well, my comment was from owner's side. An end-user corporation is the owner of a corporate device like car, so it can decide whether turning it on or off. I just commented that for any serious corporation auto-updates will be turned on, per compliance requirements applied to the corporation.
- NoPicklez 1y ago
  Well it could be solved on two fronts, you could issue the update and let users know that the update needs to be installed and will be automatically installed if not done by a specific timeframe. If there are security related updates where the risk is severe then they may auto update.
throwway120385 1y ago
> Giving user’s control over when the update runs allows them to be in a safe and secure setting when that update happens. Allowing them time, gives them and Jeep the ability to slow roll the update so they can halt it if initial feedback is negative. This does not fix any QA process that is broken. And frankly you should not need to update any control unit firmware after it is sold. The fact that they're even doing this is broken. Unless your Mac is somehow attached to 5000 pounds of metal going 65 on the highway, the same standards should probably not apply.
- cozzyd 1y ago
  > going 65 on the highway Oh you sweet summer child
- WalterBright 1y ago
  > The fact that they're even doing this is broken. The NASA space probes are constantly uploaded with new software that has greatly increased the scope of their mission.
  - vips7L 1y ago
    The NASA space probes can’t plow into a minivan with a mom and her 2 kids inside. There’s an entire different risk level here.
    - WalterBright 1y ago
      What if the update is to address a safety issue?
      - hulitu 1y ago
        > What if the update is to address a safety issue? If they didn't make "safety" right from the first time, why do you think they will do it better the second time, when the fixes are more expensive and the time pressure is enormous ?
mrheosuper 1y ago
on the other hand, if you know your old software is buggy and could cause fatal accident, you release a software update, but for some unknown reasons, the user keeps denying updating software, what would you do ?
- worewood 1y ago
  In that case you issue a recall, which is the correct way of dealing with potentially fatal manufacturing defects.
  - mrheosuper 1y ago
    Which will be costly. Also, it does not guarantee the user will return your car, right?
    - spaqin 1y ago
      Yeah, but the user will be liable for not returning the vehicle under a recall. As for cost, surely you can ask Ford's lawyers who worked there in the 70s to give you a good calculation on life vs recall costs.
      - mrheosuper 1y ago
        Just issuing a recall is not enough. There are countless reasons why someone does not return the product: They maybe simple not know, and there is no way to reach them. That is why Samsung push update to disable note 7 even after recalling them.
        mschuster91 1y ago
        > There are countless reasons why someone does not return the product: They maybe simple not know, and there is no way to reach them. In Germany we let the Kraftfahrtbundesamt handle this. You are required by law to keep your address updated with the authorities, and all vehicles have to be registered to get a license plate. When a recall for safety reasons happens, the Kraftfahrtbundesamt writes a notification letter, and if you do not respond in time with evidence of having the recall issue remediated by a qualified shop (or doing it yourself and getting a sign-off from a licensed inspector), eventually they write to your local DMV office that can ban your vehicle from the roads, and if you miss that the police shows up at your home and physically removes the license sticker from the table. And heaven forbid you get actually caught driving the car after having gotten the notification letter from your local DMV. That's automatically felony territory. Our authorities really, really do not mess around. [1] https://www.kba.de/DE/Themen/Marktueberwachung/Rueckrufe/rueckrufe_node.html https://www.kba.de/DE/Themen/Marktueberwachung/Rueckrufe/rue...

tremon 1y ago

Giving user’s control over when the update runs allows them to be in a safe and secure setting when that update happens FTFA: > The buggy update doesn't appear to brick the car immediately. Instead, the failure appears to occur while driving — a far more serious problem And from the GP upthread: > There is no way to tell if you received the bad update. > There is no way to tell if you received the 'fix' either.

conductr 1y ago
Good points, I did miss those. However, if I had this vehicle and I was reading this article today - and had the ability I'm asking for - I would just keep my current version running until they figure this mess out. It's the advantage of letting other people run the updates first, you get to hear about issues before you experience them.

deepsun 1y ago

> user who does not allow auto updates for MacOS. Many security compliances require auto-updates to be on. It's thought of to be a lesser evil, because many (most) users never update their OS/browsers, which is worse.

conductr 1y ago
The point is it’s up to the device owner to make their own risk calculation instead of the benevolent manufacturer
- rk06 1y ago
  the point was that manufacture is forced to have auto update enabled in name of security compliance. so, this issue needs to be solved by compliance first
  - conductr 1y ago
    This is a hypothetical in this situation, car manufacturers are under no such obligation. Also, rules like this tend to get reversed once the true risk is realized- people dying that is. We do all kinds of things for very marginal improvements to security these days
  - deepsun 1y ago
    Well, my comment was from owner's side. An end-user corporation is the owner of a corporate device like car, so it can decide whether turning it on or off. I just commented that for any serious corporation auto-updates will be turned on, per compliance requirements applied to the corporation.
NoPicklez 1y ago
Well it could be solved on two fronts, you could issue the update and let users know that the update needs to be installed and will be automatically installed if not done by a specific timeframe. If there are security related updates where the risk is severe then they may auto update.

throwway120385 1y ago

> Giving user’s control over when the update runs allows them to be in a safe and secure setting when that update happens. Allowing them time, gives them and Jeep the ability to slow roll the update so they can halt it if initial feedback is negative. This does not fix any QA process that is broken. And frankly you should not need to update any control unit firmware after it is sold. The fact that they're even doing this is broken. Unless your Mac is somehow attached to 5000 pounds of metal going 65 on the highway, the same standards should probably not apply.

cozzyd 1y ago
> going 65 on the highway Oh you sweet summer child
WalterBright 1y ago
> The fact that they're even doing this is broken. The NASA space probes are constantly uploaded with new software that has greatly increased the scope of their mission.
- vips7L 1y ago
  The NASA space probes can’t plow into a minivan with a mom and her 2 kids inside. There’s an entire different risk level here.
  - WalterBright 1y ago
    What if the update is to address a safety issue?
    - hulitu 1y ago
      > What if the update is to address a safety issue? If they didn't make "safety" right from the first time, why do you think they will do it better the second time, when the fixes are more expensive and the time pressure is enormous ?

mrheosuper 1y ago

on the other hand, if you know your old software is buggy and could cause fatal accident, you release a software update, but for some unknown reasons, the user keeps denying updating software, what would you do ?

worewood 1y ago
In that case you issue a recall, which is the correct way of dealing with potentially fatal manufacturing defects.
- mrheosuper 1y ago
  Which will be costly. Also, it does not guarantee the user will return your car, right?
  - spaqin 1y ago
    Yeah, but the user will be liable for not returning the vehicle under a recall. As for cost, surely you can ask Ford's lawyers who worked there in the 70s to give you a good calculation on life vs recall costs.
    - mrheosuper 1y ago
      Just issuing a recall is not enough. There are countless reasons why someone does not return the product: They maybe simple not know, and there is no way to reach them. That is why Samsung push update to disable note 7 even after recalling them.
      - mschuster91 1y ago
        > There are countless reasons why someone does not return the product: They maybe simple not know, and there is no way to reach them. In Germany we let the Kraftfahrtbundesamt handle this. You are required by law to keep your address updated with the authorities, and all vehicles have to be registered to get a license plate. When a recall for safety reasons happens, the Kraftfahrtbundesamt writes a notification letter, and if you do not respond in time with evidence of having the recall issue remediated by a qualified shop (or doing it yourself and getting a sign-off from a licensed inspector), eventually they write to your local DMV office that can ban your vehicle from the roads, and if you miss that the police shows up at your home and physically removes the license sticker from the table. And heaven forbid you get actually caught driving the car after having gotten the notification letter from your local DMV. That's automatically felony territory. Our authorities really, really do not mess around. [1] https://www.kba.de/DE/Themen/Marktueberwachung/Rueckrufe/rueckrufe_node.html https://www.kba.de/DE/Themen/Marktueberwachung/Rueckrufe/rue...