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My assumption is that the HN audience is not perfectly gaussian distribution of the population but probably not extremely far from it. So can someone who owns
by AndrewKemendo 1y ago
My assumption is that the HN audience is not perfectly gaussian distribution of the population but probably not extremely far from it.
So can someone who owns a modern car please help me understand why you would buy a car that has the mere capability to be remotely shut off?
A vehicle is a personal safety device, that allows for independent travel away from bad things and towards safe things. That is one of the most critical aspects of a vehicle.
Assuming that one of the most critical times you might need a vehicle is fleeing oppression, having a remote switch off as a possible vector to impede your escape is an existential threat and basically makes one of the core reasons to have a vehicle moot.
My assumption is that most people are not thinking about their vehicle as one of the most critical tools for freedom.
Having traveled the world and lived in war zones, vehicles are life savers and it’s insane to me that anyone would allow a possibility for someone else, specifically corporations and governments with major power levers, to even have the ability to stop that remotely.
- hamburglar 1y agoGiven the increasing computerization of modern cars, how could you possibly verify that this wasn’t possible on *any* car you buy? The only way I can think of is “don’t buy a car made within the last 25 years”
- lazide 1y agoThis is why some hardcore folks go ‘trad diesel’. Just glowplugs and mechanical parts! Notably, you have to go back to 70’ish era to get that kind of equipment. Almost everything else has some kind of ECU. Cellular connections didn’t start becoming somewhat common until the late 90’s-early 2000’s though.
- jimnotgym 1y agoThere is a UK company that puts engines with mechanical fuel pumps in newer cars. Particularly newer landrovers. £10k ugrade, and the last car you need ever buy. https://dieselpumpuk.com/ https://dieselpumpuk.com/
- danielbln 1y agoSo, either a modern safe car with a remote killswitch or a deathtrap car that will kill you in many exciting ways. Sophie's choice of cars.
- mattmaroon 1y agoIt’s only a sophie’s choice if you’re really bad at math, if not you’ll take your chances with the kill switch thing that’s never been confirmed to hurt anyone over the thing that kills tens of thousands of Americans a year.
- danielbln 1y agoI was being facetious, I'd take the remote killswitch car over the deathtrap any time.
- ethbr1 1y agoOr something that's engineered in such a way as to be modifiable into a desired disconnected state. E.g. 5th gen Toyota 4Runners: https://www.4runners.com/threads/how-to-disconnect-the-tracking-telemetry-on-the-5th-gen-4runner.20628/page-2 https://www.4runners.com/threads/how-to-disconnect-the-track... If one wants to buy a modern car, and one cares about preserving disconnected functionality, one just needs to research if there's a workable fallback mechanism. Or, you know, deal with the 20mpg but a vehicle that will last until the heat death of the universe #2uzfeClub
- DaSHacka 1y agoYeah exactly this. FWIW while cars are essentially backdoored nowadays with all the cellular/OTA updates BS you can still disable it. I suspect this won't be an option in the near future, the way things are going. I can't wait to see Hacker News comments in 2035 lamenting how they used to be able to "just use a bypass cable" to make their cars not phone home, by the time EVs and even general ICE vehicles have telemetry so deeply integrated with the vehicle it's impossible/illegal to be disabled.
- moltar 1y agoI have a 92 civic it certainly can’t be remotely shut off. I also have 2008 mazda3. Great reliable car. Also no connectivity whatsoever.
- jimnotgym 1y agoDon't buy modern cars. There is a real movement to keep driving cars from circa 2010. This was around peak car for me. You could still block off the egr valve, remove the cat and any dpf nonsense. No 'driving aids' to distract and infuriate me. No touch screens to distract and infuriate me. No software updates. Can still get over 50mpg. My car is going to keep being fixed as long as it is viable.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- janwl 1y agoUnfortunately increasingly illegal in the EU because of the ULEZs, mandatory driving aids, etc. Buying a car from 2010 is a guarantee that you won't be able to drive it in 5-10 years..
- gapan 1y agoCan you point me to the directive/regulation that states that? I am in the EU and I'm not aware of any such thing. I have two cars that are 2006-2008 models and I am not planning on replacing them.
- janwl 1y agoThere are EU-wide mandatory air quality standards that get stricter as time passes and that are being enforced through low emissions zones which practically make diesel cars illegal. This may not be the case in your country yet but it will arrive with time. Regarding driving aids, some cities in my European country are looking to make them mandatory in the city centre. Overall this is being done to keep poor people from driving.
- ErroneousBosh 1y agoMy nearly 30-year-old Range Rover is fully ULEZ compliant nearly everywhere in Europe except Paris, because it can run on propane which only really emits water and warm carbon dioxide when it burns - no "smog", no NOx, no HC, no CO, none of that. Annoyingly in post-Brexit Britain I need to wait two years until is *is* 30 years old to drive in ULEZ zones. It was fine until Brexit kicked in - yet another Conservative disasterpiece.
- AndrewKemendo 1y agoCorrect I will not buy a post patriot act vehicle
- DaSHacka 1y agoSo you exclusively buy pre-2000's shitboxes? Is there a reason for that, when you could literally just rip the modem out of a modern car instead? If you're driving such old cars, I have to assume you're mechanically inclined. At which point, a simple bypass cable or literally just removing the telematics unit out of a modern vehicle should not be too much to ask for. Bonus points for gaining moderate security with immobilizers that way, so any random guy can't just start your car with a set of wafer jigglers.
- AndrewKemendo 1y agoWhy would you assume it’s a shitbox My 2001 Tundra is a beast that will never die, has amazing AC/Heat radio etc… There are fleets of garage specials out there with low miles and tons of spare parts or are easy to maintain with a Chilton guide I started my working life fixing cars and obce they started putting in electronics it became impossible. So I stick with things I can fix
- AyyEye 1y agoYou can usually delete the modem on your car.
- baubino 1y agoNo need to go that far back. My 2010 vehicle has no remote connection.
- jjav 1y ago> The only way I can think of is “don’t buy a car made within the last 25 years” You don't need to go that far back. None of my cars have any kind of connectivity, the newest one is 2014. I'll never own a car with any kind of remote connectivity, the risk is far too large to ignore.
- DaSHacka 1y agoSo you'll be buying mid 2010's cars for the rest of your life?
- reddit_clone 1y agoHell, I have always wanted a '67 mustang. Time to ditch modern cars and get one. I particularly hate the 'modern' trend of have a large touch screen tablet instead of all the knobs and buttons.
- DaSHacka 1y agoFair enough, though fwiw automobile makers seem to have taken note on the pushback to the touch screen controls, and 2025MY vehicles are actually starting to shift away from touch screens and back to physical controls again.
- giobox 1y agoI assume you joke here but large parts of the car enthusiast community are considering this strategy for near term. 2010s is widely argued to be era of "peak car" in terms of vehicles that are well built with minimal complex extras added for compliance with emissions and over the top safety regulation (less lane departure warning systems to turn off...). My own group of car buddies, pretty much all we do is shop and trade 2010s vehicles now, rather than buy new.
- worik 1y agoYes. But can I please have an electric car, all the bells and whistles, that I take to a dealer/mechanic to get upgraded? Maybe once a year? If that, and at my choice....
- lazide 1y agoThey generally just don’t think about or even know it’s a thing. Most people push button, aim steering wheel, and voila.
- lotsofpulp 1y agoDon’t even have to push a button nowadays. That convenience is apparently worth the risks. It’s really nice to not have to have keys or worry about turning the car off or on.
- DaSHacka 1y agoIs this an EV? I assume such a feature would be quite dangerous for an ICE vehicle.
- PKop 1y ago> why you would buy a car that has the mere capability to be remotely shut off One answer to this I would presume is: there are no other new cars for sale without this flaw. Why there aren't regulations or forced options in the market without these functions (as well as with physical control knobs instead of touch surfaces) is a good question too. There is huge demand for cars without most of this nonsense, yet I don't see that demand being met. I doubt anyone wants a car whose infotainment system can be improperly updated to cause catastrophic power and engine failure while driving, if given this information and a choice to avoid it.
- 20after4 1y agoThe more cynical/conspiratorial among us (myself included) have come to the conclusion that this demand isn't being met because powerful people want it this way.
- toast0 1y ago> So can someone who owns a modern car please help me understand why you would buy a car that has the mere capability to be remotely shut off? Because afaik, all the modern cars have this as a 'feature', but there's lots of other nice features they have. The best of both worlds right now is an earlier modern car where the 2g/3g modem can no longer connect to the outside world. Even better if you can pull the modem, but they're usually up behind a lot of trim.
- estimator7292 1y agoLike smart TVs, the only possible alternative is buying a 10 year old model on the secondhand market. Vehicles without these features have not been produced in a long time
- no_wizard 1y agoOr never wire the tv. Thats what I did. Everything runs through my Apple TV (admittedly captured by my years of employment there) but could just as well run through a Kodi instance
- dripton 1y agoDumb TVs are still being made. I bought this Sharp commercial TV just last year: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CCMXNRFH https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CCMXNRFH Of course they're not mass-market and will be lacking on some other bullet point features, but if you really care about your TV not turning into an ad billboard in 2 years, they're the way to go.
- mojosam 1y ago> So can someone who owns a modern car please help me understand why you would buy a car that has the mere capability to be remotely shut off? That’s not what is going on here. These cars are not being intentionally shut down remotely. Instead, a software update for some computerized components of the car was pushed down to the cars and installed with the owners permissions, but that update apparently has severe bugs that should have been caught by QA.
- voakbasda 1y agoThis is a distinction without a difference. Intentional or not, these vehicles were disabled remotely. Even if the owner gave permission to install the update, I would strongly wager that they did not give concurrent permission for the update to change the behavior of the vehicle. Of course, I sincerely doubt the EULA offers any way to separate those permissions; you are all in, or you are all out. Assuming that you even have an option to opt out. And that’s exactly why these cars can never be trusted under any circumstances, ever.
- mystraline 1y ago"Do you want to update? Yes or later". And blocks semi-critical stuff so you must address it. "Do you want to update? Yes or later". And blocks semi-critical stuff so you must address it. "Do you want to update? Yes or later". And blocks semi-critical stuff so you must address it. "Update now. You cannot refuse since you said no 3 times" Or, other parodies, "Just say MAYBE LATER to drugs"
- cosmicgadget 1y agoWouldn't it make sense to keep your prepper car in the garage (next to the welder) and low-mileage? Use the one with fancy electronics as a daily driver and hope the revolution doesn't happen during your commute.
- pavel_lishin 1y ago> Assuming that one of the most critical times you might need a vehicle is fleeing oppression That's a hell of an assumption. If we're talking about population distributions, I would argue that "having lived in war zones" puts you well outside the center of the curve.
- jrochkind1 1y agoif you really mean help you understand why and that wasn't a rhetorical exageration, it's not hard to understand. Most people have a variety of things they are looking for in a car they want to purchase, and other factors are more important to them than this one, which they figure probably won't happen anyway. There may be few options that aren't updateable over the air, and those options don't meet their other criteria -- if they even get that deep into considering it, which they probably don't, they just aren't really thinking about it. But even if they did. you don't have the option of buying your perfect fantasy car. I'd like to buy a car with manual mechanical controls instead of touch screen controls, but there aren't that many options for that either, and they may not meet my other needs.
- kmoser 1y agoSame reason people buy most things these days: convenience. Do you own a cell phone? It can be remotely updated (and even shut down by malicious actors), yet most people own one and don't think twice about it.
- mattmaroon 1y agoIt is extremely far from it in the US, I promise. But direct answers: 1. They don’t know that can happen. The salesman doesn’t point it out. 2. They figure all cars will be that way soon so why worry about it. 3. It’s never happened to anyone before so why worry about it. 4. We don’t know anyone who has ever had to flee from oppression in their car so why worry about it. And this is America, if that’s what we’re worried about we’ll stock up on ammo. Etc
- sjducb 1y agoYou’ve got me thinking. I drive a Chinese made EV. If China ever had a nuclear war with the west they would definitely brick all of the cars they’ve sold us. Also it doesn’t have to be China that issues the command. Remote shutoff of cars is a great cyber warfare target.
- JonChesterfield 1y agoDisable brakes and set acceleration to max, on all of them simultaneously, would have rather bigger impact than switching them off.
- DaSHacka 1y agoDoing it intelligently through an automatic OTA update that waits for the user to be in a difficult scenario would be much smarter. Bonus points for adding a time-based kill switch so this feature gets pushed out months in advance, just to ensure everyone with such a vehicle has this malicious update installed.
- sjducb 1y agoI’ve looked at the fuse box for my car and found the fuse that powers the Ariel Module. Removing this fuse breaks GPS and all cellular connectivity. Hopefully it breaks automatic updates. I am tempted to leave it disconnected to see if my car skips an update. The rest of the car works fine. If the political situation heats up then I can remove this fuse to isolate my car from the internet. Some people connect a toggle switch in place of this fuse so they can leave the car disconnected from the internet when they are not using online functions. I would be surprised if simply removing a fuse voids my warranty.
- DaSHacka 1y agoNot sure about the warranty effect, but on many other vehicles there are also bypass cables for the telematics units that allow you to physically remove them entirely from the car without losing any functionality (well, other than the online functionality obviously). In my case, I'll gladly take potentially voiding the warranty on a car that almost certainly has it expired anyway, over being surveilled and monitored by the manufacturer so my usage habits can be reported to insurance companies.
- Marsymars 1y ago> So can someone who owns a modern car please help me understand why you would buy a car that has the mere capability to be remotely shut off? In practice, getting t-boned at an intersection where I have the right of way is a much greater risk to me than my car getting shut off, so it makes sense to optimize for safety in the former case.
- sjducb 1y agoYou can usually remove the fuse that powers the 5G antenna. That will probably isolate your car from kill switch software updates. Agreed that most people don’t think about this. I’m a preper and I hadn’t thought about this.
- Tade0 1y agoRealistically I would be cycling out of my city because if there was anyone else except me running from oppression, we would be all caught in the same traffic jam. I happen to live on the outskirts, but there are several choke points where it would be really easy to set up a barrier. Those choke points apply to cars mostly.
- worik 1y ago> Realistically I would be cycling out of my city Good for you, sensible and community minded to keep roads clear(er) You have no dependant children or pets that you must take care of too
- ponector 1y agoI'm buying a reliable and comfortable way to travel around the home town, not into warzone. Yes, I want it to be connected to the app, to conveniently see fuel level, location, etc.
- junglistguy 1y ago[dead]
- EvanAnderson 1y agoLots of child comments mention fleeing oppression as being something outside the norm. A more relatable thing to flee for Americans might be hurricanes and wildfires-- both of which sizeable numbers of Americans have had to flee somewhat regularly.