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Self-identified "conservatives" are pushing this wave of censorship and autocracy. You're not helping anyone with those rhetoric tricks.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> Self-identified "conservatives" are pushing this wave of censorship and autocracy Are they? MAGA has made it a point to purge the former GOP of conservatives.
- baobabKoodaa 1y ago
  I'm gonna need a source for that with specificity to the "conservative" self-identification.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    You’re the one who made the claim that “self-identified ‘conservatives’ are pushing this wave of censorship and autocracy.” Isn’t the burden of proof on you? In any case, we have polling around non-MAGA Republicans [1]. And contrasting Trump 1 and 2 seems to show how having non-MAGA Republicans, many of whom identified as conservative and didn’t endorse the 2020 coup attempt, makes a difference. [1] https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/econtoplines_Cv0m59u.pdf#page=14 https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/econtoplines...
    - baobabKoodaa 1y ago
      Here's one example of the MAGA crowd self-identifying as conservative: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Political_Action_Conference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Political_Action_...
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > Here's one example of the MAGA crowd self-identifying as conservative Sorry, I didn't mean to imply no conservatives are MAGA. Just that I would be surprised if a majority of self-identifying conservatives identify with MAGA. (I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of former conservatives were now MAGA.) The difference is meaningful, because by unifying MAGA and conservatives one loses resolution on a powerful breakaway faction. (The main reason we had a free and fair election in 2020 is because some Republicans upheld their oaths to the Constitution.)
- boston_clone 1y ago
  This just in, the National Socialist Party of Germany in the 1930s is not actually Socialist !
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > the National Socialist Party of Germany in the 1930s is not actually Socialist Good comparison. One of the victims of the Night of the Long Knives were the Strasserists [1][2]. It’s absolutely legitimate to point out when the German Socialist movement was coöpted by Hitler. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasserism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasserism
    - baobabKoodaa 1y ago
      No true socialist could do such a thing.
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > No true socialist could do such a thing You’re really going to reduce a historical event to platitudes? What people call themselves matters. It may not be strictly correct. But it’s an identity, and that predicts how they’ll align in a crisis or movement.
        baobabKoodaa 1y ago
        It was a reference to "no true scottsman"
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > It was a reference to "no true scottsman" I know. A platitude is a trite and obvious remark. Whether the Nazis are true socialists is a red herring. The point is the people who called themselves socialist before the Nazis were systematically purged by the Nazis once they coöpted their party. It would be incorrect to say self-identified socialists were responsible for everything the Nazis did; it would be correct to say they enabled them to rise to power. Most importantly, however, would be observing that right before the Nazis consolidated power, it was the former socialists who could have been peeled away, potentially to huge consequence.
mindslight 1y ago
> Self-identified "conservatives" are pushing this wave of censorship and autocracy Yes, exactly! They are lying to themselves, and as a group. They're not conserving our society, but rather throwing it away. I'm not doing a rhetorical trick - they are doing a rhetorical trick, and I am calling it out.
- baobabKoodaa 1y ago
  When a group calling themselves 'X', who are also broadly called 'X' by outsiders, decides to do something, that group 'has something to do with X'.
  - mindslight 1y ago
    > who are also broadly called 'X' by outsiders Yes. I keep saying - we need to stop doing this. "Conservative" makes it sound like what they are doing is gradual, measured, and familiar. Maybe not in narrow progressive circles where "conservative" has gathered strong negative connotations, but still in the wider general world. Using "conservative" as a synonym for Republicans/reactionaries/fascists is helping to support their movement.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> Self-identified "conservatives" are pushing this wave of censorship and autocracy Are they? MAGA has made it a point to purge the former GOP of conservatives.

baobabKoodaa 1y ago
I'm gonna need a source for that with specificity to the "conservative" self-identification.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  You’re the one who made the claim that “self-identified ‘conservatives’ are pushing this wave of censorship and autocracy.” Isn’t the burden of proof on you? In any case, we have polling around non-MAGA Republicans [1]. And contrasting Trump 1 and 2 seems to show how having non-MAGA Republicans, many of whom identified as conservative and didn’t endorse the 2020 coup attempt, makes a difference. [1] https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/econtoplines_Cv0m59u.pdf#page=14 https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/econtoplines...
  - baobabKoodaa 1y ago
    Here's one example of the MAGA crowd self-identifying as conservative: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Political_Action_Conference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Political_Action_...
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > Here's one example of the MAGA crowd self-identifying as conservative Sorry, I didn't mean to imply no conservatives are MAGA. Just that I would be surprised if a majority of self-identifying conservatives identify with MAGA. (I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of former conservatives were now MAGA.) The difference is meaningful, because by unifying MAGA and conservatives one loses resolution on a powerful breakaway faction. (The main reason we had a free and fair election in 2020 is because some Republicans upheld their oaths to the Constitution.)
boston_clone 1y ago
This just in, the National Socialist Party of Germany in the 1930s is not actually Socialist !
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > the National Socialist Party of Germany in the 1930s is not actually Socialist Good comparison. One of the victims of the Night of the Long Knives were the Strasserists [1][2]. It’s absolutely legitimate to point out when the German Socialist movement was coöpted by Hitler. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasserism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasserism
  - baobabKoodaa 1y ago
    No true socialist could do such a thing.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > No true socialist could do such a thing You’re really going to reduce a historical event to platitudes? What people call themselves matters. It may not be strictly correct. But it’s an identity, and that predicts how they’ll align in a crisis or movement.
      - baobabKoodaa 1y ago
        It was a reference to "no true scottsman"
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > It was a reference to "no true scottsman" I know. A platitude is a trite and obvious remark. Whether the Nazis are true socialists is a red herring. The point is the people who called themselves socialist before the Nazis were systematically purged by the Nazis once they coöpted their party. It would be incorrect to say self-identified socialists were responsible for everything the Nazis did; it would be correct to say they enabled them to rise to power. Most importantly, however, would be observing that right before the Nazis consolidated power, it was the former socialists who could have been peeled away, potentially to huge consequence.

mindslight 1y ago

> Self-identified "conservatives" are pushing this wave of censorship and autocracy Yes, exactly! They are lying to themselves, and as a group. They're not conserving our society, but rather throwing it away. I'm not doing a rhetorical trick - they are doing a rhetorical trick, and I am calling it out.

baobabKoodaa 1y ago
When a group calling themselves 'X', who are also broadly called 'X' by outsiders, decides to do something, that group 'has something to do with X'.
- mindslight 1y ago
  > who are also broadly called 'X' by outsiders Yes. I keep saying - we need to stop doing this. "Conservative" makes it sound like what they are doing is gradual, measured, and familiar. Maybe not in narrow progressive circles where "conservative" has gathered strong negative connotations, but still in the wider general world. Using "conservative" as a synonym for Republicans/reactionaries/fascists is helping to support their movement.