4 ms·

Conservatives mostly can get away with anything right now.

by nerdponx 1y ago

mindslight 1y ago
There's nothing "conservative" about the fascist movement. It's regressive / reactionary (to use Yarvin's own label).
- baobabKoodaa 1y ago
  Self-identified "conservatives" are pushing this wave of censorship and autocracy. You're not helping anyone with those rhetoric tricks.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > Self-identified "conservatives" are pushing this wave of censorship and autocracy Are they? MAGA has made it a point to purge the former GOP of conservatives.
    - baobabKoodaa 1y ago
      I'm gonna need a source for that with specificity to the "conservative" self-identification.
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        You’re the one who made the claim that “self-identified ‘conservatives’ are pushing this wave of censorship and autocracy.” Isn’t the burden of proof on you? In any case, we have polling around non-MAGA Republicans [1]. And contrasting Trump 1 and 2 seems to show how having non-MAGA Republicans, many of whom identified as conservative and didn’t endorse the 2020 coup attempt, makes a difference. [1] https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/econtoplines_Cv0m59u.pdf#page=14 https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/econtoplines...
        baobabKoodaa 1y ago
        Here's one example of the MAGA crowd self-identifying as conservative: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Political_Action_Conference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Political_Action_...
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > Here's one example of the MAGA crowd self-identifying as conservative Sorry, I didn't mean to imply no conservatives are MAGA. Just that I would be surprised if a majority of self-identifying conservatives identify with MAGA. (I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of former conservatives were now MAGA.) The difference is meaningful, because by unifying MAGA and conservatives one loses resolution on a powerful breakaway faction. (The main reason we had a free and fair election in 2020 is because some Republicans upheld their oaths to the Constitution.)
    - boston_clone 1y ago
      This just in, the National Socialist Party of Germany in the 1930s is not actually Socialist !
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > the National Socialist Party of Germany in the 1930s is not actually Socialist Good comparison. One of the victims of the Night of the Long Knives were the Strasserists [1][2]. It’s absolutely legitimate to point out when the German Socialist movement was coöpted by Hitler. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasserism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasserism
        baobabKoodaa 1y ago
        No true socialist could do such a thing.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > No true socialist could do such a thing You’re really going to reduce a historical event to platitudes? What people call themselves matters. It may not be strictly correct. But it’s an identity, and that predicts how they’ll align in a crisis or movement.
        baobabKoodaa 1y ago
        It was a reference to "no true scottsman"
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > It was a reference to "no true scottsman" I know. A platitude is a trite and obvious remark. Whether the Nazis are true socialists is a red herring. The point is the people who called themselves socialist before the Nazis were systematically purged by the Nazis once they coöpted their party. It would be incorrect to say self-identified socialists were responsible for everything the Nazis did; it would be correct to say they enabled them to rise to power. Most importantly, however, would be observing that right before the Nazis consolidated power, it was the former socialists who could have been peeled away, potentially to huge consequence.
  - mindslight 1y ago
    > Self-identified "conservatives" are pushing this wave of censorship and autocracy Yes, exactly! They are lying to themselves, and as a group. They're not conserving our society, but rather throwing it away. I'm not doing a rhetorical trick - they are doing a rhetorical trick, and I am calling it out.
    - baobabKoodaa 1y ago
      When a group calling themselves 'X', who are also broadly called 'X' by outsiders, decides to do something, that group 'has something to do with X'.
      - mindslight 1y ago
        > who are also broadly called 'X' by outsiders Yes. I keep saying - we need to stop doing this. "Conservative" makes it sound like what they are doing is gradual, measured, and familiar. Maybe not in narrow progressive circles where "conservative" has gathered strong negative connotations, but still in the wider general world. Using "conservative" as a synonym for Republicans/reactionaries/fascists is helping to support their movement.
- Bratmon 1y ago
  This is a distinction without a difference. "Regressive", "reactionary", and "conservative" are three words that refer to the exact same people and mean the exact same thing.
  - mindslight 1y ago
    No, the words mean different things. When used to refer to a group, those meanings confer connotations. The point is that we need to stop referring to people destroying our society as "conservative".
    - zzzeek 1y ago
      why do we need to do that? Which of the two political parties in the US is known as "conservative"? What does that party look like now? What policies are being pursued by that party's elected officials, and how much do they differ in concept from what that same party was doing ten years ago, twenty years ago, fifty years ago? The Southern Strategy, Reagan's speech at Neshoba county fair, "Starve the Beast", "Brownie you're doing a heckuva job", you can draw a straight line all the way through to today. we're living in the utter pinnacle of unfettered conservatism today.
      - mindslight 1y ago
        Try painting with a less broad brush. I agree that we're experiencing the endgame of the Republican political operatives scorched-earth divisive tactics, but to insist on tying all their latent supporters to that is a grave mistake. Imagine for a minute, if you will, that there are reasonable people who believe in some conservative values, but don't examine the rest of the party platform (or its results) all too hard. Now imagine that by pointing out where Trump falls short or is even directly opposed to those values (eg 2nd amendment), you might actually make them come around to seeing that we need to oust this autocratic child-raping anti-American scumbag. That would be a good thing, right? I do get that Trump is just the tip of the Party's spear, and the whole pantheon of corrupt congresscritters / supreme council members / corporate backers really needs to go down with the ship. But that didn't work for 2024, and I'd say at this point we're losing our society and our country faster at a faster rate that those enablers' reputations are being damaged, so that seems like a terrible strategy. First and foremost, we need to stop the hemorrhaging.
lawn 1y ago
Keyword "right now". Many who initially supported Hitler found themselves dearly regretting their actions.

Conservatives mostly can get away with anything right now.

mindslight 1y ago

There's nothing "conservative" about the fascist movement. It's regressive / reactionary (to use Yarvin's own label).

baobabKoodaa 1y ago
Self-identified "conservatives" are pushing this wave of censorship and autocracy. You're not helping anyone with those rhetoric tricks.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > Self-identified "conservatives" are pushing this wave of censorship and autocracy Are they? MAGA has made it a point to purge the former GOP of conservatives.
  - baobabKoodaa 1y ago
    I'm gonna need a source for that with specificity to the "conservative" self-identification.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      You’re the one who made the claim that “self-identified ‘conservatives’ are pushing this wave of censorship and autocracy.” Isn’t the burden of proof on you? In any case, we have polling around non-MAGA Republicans [1]. And contrasting Trump 1 and 2 seems to show how having non-MAGA Republicans, many of whom identified as conservative and didn’t endorse the 2020 coup attempt, makes a difference. [1] https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/econtoplines_Cv0m59u.pdf#page=14 https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/econtoplines...
      - baobabKoodaa 1y ago
        Here's one example of the MAGA crowd self-identifying as conservative: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Political_Action_Conference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Political_Action_...
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > Here's one example of the MAGA crowd self-identifying as conservative Sorry, I didn't mean to imply no conservatives are MAGA. Just that I would be surprised if a majority of self-identifying conservatives identify with MAGA. (I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of former conservatives were now MAGA.) The difference is meaningful, because by unifying MAGA and conservatives one loses resolution on a powerful breakaway faction. (The main reason we had a free and fair election in 2020 is because some Republicans upheld their oaths to the Constitution.)
  - boston_clone 1y ago
    This just in, the National Socialist Party of Germany in the 1930s is not actually Socialist !
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > the National Socialist Party of Germany in the 1930s is not actually Socialist Good comparison. One of the victims of the Night of the Long Knives were the Strasserists [1][2]. It’s absolutely legitimate to point out when the German Socialist movement was coöpted by Hitler. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasserism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasserism
      - baobabKoodaa 1y ago
        No true socialist could do such a thing.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > No true socialist could do such a thing You’re really going to reduce a historical event to platitudes? What people call themselves matters. It may not be strictly correct. But it’s an identity, and that predicts how they’ll align in a crisis or movement.
        baobabKoodaa 1y ago
        It was a reference to "no true scottsman"
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > It was a reference to "no true scottsman" I know. A platitude is a trite and obvious remark. Whether the Nazis are true socialists is a red herring. The point is the people who called themselves socialist before the Nazis were systematically purged by the Nazis once they coöpted their party. It would be incorrect to say self-identified socialists were responsible for everything the Nazis did; it would be correct to say they enabled them to rise to power. Most importantly, however, would be observing that right before the Nazis consolidated power, it was the former socialists who could have been peeled away, potentially to huge consequence.
- mindslight 1y ago
  > Self-identified "conservatives" are pushing this wave of censorship and autocracy Yes, exactly! They are lying to themselves, and as a group. They're not conserving our society, but rather throwing it away. I'm not doing a rhetorical trick - they are doing a rhetorical trick, and I am calling it out.
  - baobabKoodaa 1y ago
    When a group calling themselves 'X', who are also broadly called 'X' by outsiders, decides to do something, that group 'has something to do with X'.
    - mindslight 1y ago
      > who are also broadly called 'X' by outsiders Yes. I keep saying - we need to stop doing this. "Conservative" makes it sound like what they are doing is gradual, measured, and familiar. Maybe not in narrow progressive circles where "conservative" has gathered strong negative connotations, but still in the wider general world. Using "conservative" as a synonym for Republicans/reactionaries/fascists is helping to support their movement.
Bratmon 1y ago
This is a distinction without a difference. "Regressive", "reactionary", and "conservative" are three words that refer to the exact same people and mean the exact same thing.
- mindslight 1y ago
  No, the words mean different things. When used to refer to a group, those meanings confer connotations. The point is that we need to stop referring to people destroying our society as "conservative".
  - zzzeek 1y ago
    why do we need to do that? Which of the two political parties in the US is known as "conservative"? What does that party look like now? What policies are being pursued by that party's elected officials, and how much do they differ in concept from what that same party was doing ten years ago, twenty years ago, fifty years ago? The Southern Strategy, Reagan's speech at Neshoba county fair, "Starve the Beast", "Brownie you're doing a heckuva job", you can draw a straight line all the way through to today. we're living in the utter pinnacle of unfettered conservatism today.
    - mindslight 1y ago
      Try painting with a less broad brush. I agree that we're experiencing the endgame of the Republican political operatives scorched-earth divisive tactics, but to insist on tying all their latent supporters to that is a grave mistake. Imagine for a minute, if you will, that there are reasonable people who believe in some conservative values, but don't examine the rest of the party platform (or its results) all too hard. Now imagine that by pointing out where Trump falls short or is even directly opposed to those values (eg 2nd amendment), you might actually make them come around to seeing that we need to oust this autocratic child-raping anti-American scumbag. That would be a good thing, right? I do get that Trump is just the tip of the Party's spear, and the whole pantheon of corrupt congresscritters / supreme council members / corporate backers really needs to go down with the ship. But that didn't work for 2024, and I'd say at this point we're losing our society and our country faster at a faster rate that those enablers' reputations are being damaged, so that seems like a terrible strategy. First and foremost, we need to stop the hemorrhaging.

lawn 1y ago

Keyword "right now". Many who initially supported Hitler found themselves dearly regretting their actions.