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But do people who have dementia or say a mental illness have the capacity to make that decision? It sounds like Daniel Kahneman was suffering from depression a

by Noaidi 1y ago

But do people who have dementia or say a mental illness have the capacity to make that decision? It sounds like Daniel Kahneman was suffering from depression after his wife's death and all he saw in the rest of his life was sadness. He had no hope. What day was the best day to die? What if the next day his hope came back?

lukan 1y ago
"What if the next day his hope came back?" What if he tried that, but every day just got worse than the last day? And people don't get any younger. My grandmother is 98. She hates her life since she could not go out anymore. But she is catholic and suicide would be a mortal sin. So she waits till gods take her. And suffers till then. I would make a different choice for sure. If life is hell and no one depends on me, why should I continue the suffering? (At the cost of others, if I would need help?) But my plan is of course to reach 120+ in good health. But if I decide I had enough, it will be my decision.
- Noaidi 1y ago
  > What if he tried that, but every day just got worse than the last day? Anyone can say that about their life right now, can't they? How many people struggling today think that their life will get no better? Look at all those who made it through slavery, what hope did they have? Their hope came from their faith. Suffering has a purpose, this is something your grandmother understands through her faith. Buddhists understand this as well. Maybe the problem is not our suffering, but our lack of faith in others and in in something bigger than ourselves.
  - lukan 1y ago
    Well, but what if I ain't a christian nor a buddhist and don't think suffering as a normal living condition is necessary? (Can you proof it is? Also I don't think all christians/buddhists share that believe) So sure, suffering and pain are part of life. And accepting that helps a lot to not get stuck in that condition by avoiding painful things, you cannot avoid. "Anyone can say that about their life right now, can't they?" So no, not anyone is saying that. Only those with a death wish. And I don't consider having a death wish as a mental condition. It can of course result of a illness, but it can also be a consciouss wish and then finally a decision. And if other people decide they may not do this, but have to remain in their state of living hell, then this is just torture to me.
    - hrimfaxi 1y ago
      > Well, but what if I ain't a christian nor a buddhist and don't think suffering as a normal living condition is necessary? (Can you proof it is? Also I don't think all christians/buddhists share that believe) At the very least, suffering (through childbirth) is a prerequisite to bringing life into this world. edit: strange that this is flagged. my parent asked for proof that suffering is inherent in life, and I don't know anyone who has said that the physical act of giving birth is anything but painful.
      - lukan 1y ago
        No, I asked for proof that a constant condition of suffering is inherent of life. Not that suffering is also part of life. (Vouched for it to be able to reply)
        Noaidi 1y ago
        There is no such thing as constant suffering and there’s no such thing as constant joy. Without suffering, we would not know joy and without joy we wouldn’t know suffering. So these are two sides of the same coin, do you see that? It’s our attachment to ourselves that brings us both joy and suffering. So, I’m sorry, if you want to get rid of suffering you’re going to get rid of joy as well. So I don’t know if dying brings us joy or gets rid of our suffering. We really don’t know what happens to us after we die, do we? You can say that everything just ends, but I’m really not wanting to say that because, well, I’m still alive. I told my schizophrenic brother why he shouldn’t take his life by suicide. I just asked him if he knew what it was like being dead and if he thought he was certain that being dead would be any better. He literally told me the confusion of that question. Let him to accepting his life as it was. Better the Devil You Know than the one you don’t.
        jncfhnb 1y ago
        > Without suffering, we would not know joy and without joy we wouldn’t know suffering. So these are two sides of the same coin, do you see that? Bullshit argument. The suffering that many people experience is profound. These people don’t have a more profound experience of joy than those whose lives are chill. And the happy lives of people who haven’t suffered are not better because the sufferers have felt worse. > I told my schizophrenic brother why he shouldn’t take his life by suicide. I just asked him if he knew what it was like being dead and if he thought he was certain that being dead would be any better. He literally told me the confusion of that question. Let him to accepting his life as it was. Better the Devil You Know than the one you don’t. “You should suffer because the next part may be even worse suffering” is such a fucked up argument.
  - cwillu 1y ago
    [flagged]
  - circlefavshape 1y ago
    Let's see how you handle suffering when it comes knocking on your door
    - lukan 1y ago
      He shared his brother had shizophrenia and much later died of it. I assume he did got a glimpse into what suffering means. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45548996 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45548996
      - leakycap 1y ago
        Seeing someone else experience something is not the same as having it happen to you, and those who wish to instill their opinion on others often have the smallest worldviews and ability to think about what it might be like to experience what someone else is going through.
        Noaidi 1y ago
        Please stop assuming you know what suffering I’ve had in my own body and my own life. I don’t wish to discuss it here, but I don’t think it needs to be discussed. My experience doesn’t matter in the logic of the argument.
        leakycap 1y ago
        If you don't want to talk about it, you can't expect anyone around you to take it into account. You can leave it unsaid if you aren't going to say it, and either way you claim it isn't relevant.
        Noaidi 1y ago
        I am saying it’s relevant because suffering is suffering. It has the same source so it does not matter if it’s a big suffering or a little suffering. Understanding suffering does not need a degree of suffering. It just needs suffering. The man in the original article was not suffering at all yet he killed himself. What kind of suffering was that? It’s not that he was suffering. He didn’t wanna suffer at all. He didn’t want to suffer shame. This man knew so little about suffering that he took his own life rather than try to figure it out and the remaining years of his life.
  - raw_anon_1111 1y ago
    If I’m 95 years old with terminal cancer, my life isn’t going to get better. And please don’t bring some mythical being in the argument.
    - Noaidi 1y ago
      Both the Buddha andJesus were real people. I wasn’t bringing up God as I don’t believe in a Christian God, and Buddhists don’t believe in God at all. But those two characters taught us a lot about suffering. Where it comes from and how to face suffering with courage and not just throw your morals out the window once you have the glimpse of even future suffering. Maybe it’s just me, but I see every moment as the best it can possibly be. Whether I’m seeing this gorgeous sunny blue sky today or I’m 95 years old with terminal cancer. It’s a miracle to be born and to exist in this world, it’s extremely rare. And I want to live every last second of it. Maybe that’s what’s upsetting me about reading what he wrote. If you just try to grab the good times in this life and use that as a goal you’re going to be severely disappointed.
      - leakycap 1y ago
        > If you just try to grab the good times in this life and use that as a goal you’re going to be severely disappointed. No, it sounds like you would be disappointed in that scenario. Many would be elated to get through this hell-hole relatively joyous & unscathed.
      - lukan 1y ago
        "And I want to live every last second of it." Glad for you. I really hope you never come into a situation that you wish for your life to end. But please take into account, that other people might experience life different at times. No one has a death wish, because things are a bit rough sometimes. But if life is constant hell and when there is no hope anymore. Then you wish for death to release you. (Also do you know what latestage cancer can mean? Constant pain that does not go away, ever. And Jesus might have been a real person, but that he choose crucification out of his own choice is very much part of the mythological story that other people told after his death)
  - Viliam1234 1y ago
    > Suffering has a purpose Maybe some suffering has a purpose, and some suffering does not? It doesn't have to be always this or always that.
LorenPechtel 1y ago
Why do you see depression? Note the article mentions a partner--he lost his wife but he had found someone else so I do not think this is a result of losing his wife.
- Noaidi 1y ago
  I think it was this part that stuck out to me. “His partner died in 2018 as a result of vascular dementia. The loss affected him deeply.” I can see that loss affecting him even though he had a new partner. Depression does not always go away when you meet someone new. But I think people with depression have lost hope in the future. And it sounds like he lost Hope in his future.
  - fn-mote 1y ago
    > it sounds like he lost hope in his future People in their 80's are watching their friends die one after the other. They aren't fooling themselves about their long-term prospects. No problems with enjoying life, I support that, but it's hard to believe the end isn't coming for you like it comes for everyone else. I just think this idea that it is "hope" or "depression" is wrong-headed. Having some older friends might give you a deeper perspective.
    - Noaidi 1y ago
      I am old. I have friends in their 70s and I have friends that died of cancer and suicide and heart attacks. I had a father who died terribly of a rapid spreading cancer and a mother who lived with chronic pain and heart disease for 30 years. I have friends who like me live in poverty some of them suffer from it, others of us don’t. If you lived in your 80s and you have not figured out what life is about then that’s not a problem with life, that’s a problem with the person who did not figure out life. This is the spiritual quest that I think is missing in the world right now. I’m not really being woo-woo here and I’m not talking about God or any other mythical being. I’m talking about the amazing thing that it is to be alive. Being alive is not just about happiness, but you can be joyous experiencing both happiness and suffering. Our suffering will end, and our happiness will end. Acceptance of the things you can’t change is the key here. I am no stoic that’s for sure. If you’re too hot, move into the shade. But if I have no shade and I’m suffering the heat, how much more happy am I going to be when I finally reach shade! It’s my friends who went through the deepest suffering that are the most happy and joyous. It’s these people who teach us about life, Not the people who kill themselves because they’re afraid of looking like an old man.

by Noaidi 1y ago

lukan 1y ago

"What if the next day his hope came back?" What if he tried that, but every day just got worse than the last day? And people don't get any younger. My grandmother is 98. She hates her life since she could not go out anymore. But she is catholic and suicide would be a mortal sin. So she waits till gods take her. And suffers till then. I would make a different choice for sure. If life is hell and no one depends on me, why should I continue the suffering? (At the cost of others, if I would need help?) But my plan is of course to reach 120+ in good health. But if I decide I had enough, it will be my decision.

Noaidi 1y ago
> What if he tried that, but every day just got worse than the last day? Anyone can say that about their life right now, can't they? How many people struggling today think that their life will get no better? Look at all those who made it through slavery, what hope did they have? Their hope came from their faith. Suffering has a purpose, this is something your grandmother understands through her faith. Buddhists understand this as well. Maybe the problem is not our suffering, but our lack of faith in others and in in something bigger than ourselves.
- lukan 1y ago
  Well, but what if I ain't a christian nor a buddhist and don't think suffering as a normal living condition is necessary? (Can you proof it is? Also I don't think all christians/buddhists share that believe) So sure, suffering and pain are part of life. And accepting that helps a lot to not get stuck in that condition by avoiding painful things, you cannot avoid. "Anyone can say that about their life right now, can't they?" So no, not anyone is saying that. Only those with a death wish. And I don't consider having a death wish as a mental condition. It can of course result of a illness, but it can also be a consciouss wish and then finally a decision. And if other people decide they may not do this, but have to remain in their state of living hell, then this is just torture to me.
  - hrimfaxi 1y ago
    > Well, but what if I ain't a christian nor a buddhist and don't think suffering as a normal living condition is necessary? (Can you proof it is? Also I don't think all christians/buddhists share that believe) At the very least, suffering (through childbirth) is a prerequisite to bringing life into this world. edit: strange that this is flagged. my parent asked for proof that suffering is inherent in life, and I don't know anyone who has said that the physical act of giving birth is anything but painful.
    - lukan 1y ago
      No, I asked for proof that a constant condition of suffering is inherent of life. Not that suffering is also part of life. (Vouched for it to be able to reply)
      - Noaidi 1y ago
        There is no such thing as constant suffering and there’s no such thing as constant joy. Without suffering, we would not know joy and without joy we wouldn’t know suffering. So these are two sides of the same coin, do you see that? It’s our attachment to ourselves that brings us both joy and suffering. So, I’m sorry, if you want to get rid of suffering you’re going to get rid of joy as well. So I don’t know if dying brings us joy or gets rid of our suffering. We really don’t know what happens to us after we die, do we? You can say that everything just ends, but I’m really not wanting to say that because, well, I’m still alive. I told my schizophrenic brother why he shouldn’t take his life by suicide. I just asked him if he knew what it was like being dead and if he thought he was certain that being dead would be any better. He literally told me the confusion of that question. Let him to accepting his life as it was. Better the Devil You Know than the one you don’t.
        jncfhnb 1y ago
        > Without suffering, we would not know joy and without joy we wouldn’t know suffering. So these are two sides of the same coin, do you see that? Bullshit argument. The suffering that many people experience is profound. These people don’t have a more profound experience of joy than those whose lives are chill. And the happy lives of people who haven’t suffered are not better because the sufferers have felt worse. > I told my schizophrenic brother why he shouldn’t take his life by suicide. I just asked him if he knew what it was like being dead and if he thought he was certain that being dead would be any better. He literally told me the confusion of that question. Let him to accepting his life as it was. Better the Devil You Know than the one you don’t. “You should suffer because the next part may be even worse suffering” is such a fucked up argument.
- cwillu 1y ago
  [flagged]
- circlefavshape 1y ago
  Let's see how you handle suffering when it comes knocking on your door
  - lukan 1y ago
    He shared his brother had shizophrenia and much later died of it. I assume he did got a glimpse into what suffering means. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45548996 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45548996
    - leakycap 1y ago
      Seeing someone else experience something is not the same as having it happen to you, and those who wish to instill their opinion on others often have the smallest worldviews and ability to think about what it might be like to experience what someone else is going through.
      - Noaidi 1y ago
        Please stop assuming you know what suffering I’ve had in my own body and my own life. I don’t wish to discuss it here, but I don’t think it needs to be discussed. My experience doesn’t matter in the logic of the argument.
        leakycap 1y ago
        If you don't want to talk about it, you can't expect anyone around you to take it into account. You can leave it unsaid if you aren't going to say it, and either way you claim it isn't relevant.
        Noaidi 1y ago
        I am saying it’s relevant because suffering is suffering. It has the same source so it does not matter if it’s a big suffering or a little suffering. Understanding suffering does not need a degree of suffering. It just needs suffering. The man in the original article was not suffering at all yet he killed himself. What kind of suffering was that? It’s not that he was suffering. He didn’t wanna suffer at all. He didn’t want to suffer shame. This man knew so little about suffering that he took his own life rather than try to figure it out and the remaining years of his life.
- raw_anon_1111 1y ago
  If I’m 95 years old with terminal cancer, my life isn’t going to get better. And please don’t bring some mythical being in the argument.
  - Noaidi 1y ago
    Both the Buddha andJesus were real people. I wasn’t bringing up God as I don’t believe in a Christian God, and Buddhists don’t believe in God at all. But those two characters taught us a lot about suffering. Where it comes from and how to face suffering with courage and not just throw your morals out the window once you have the glimpse of even future suffering. Maybe it’s just me, but I see every moment as the best it can possibly be. Whether I’m seeing this gorgeous sunny blue sky today or I’m 95 years old with terminal cancer. It’s a miracle to be born and to exist in this world, it’s extremely rare. And I want to live every last second of it. Maybe that’s what’s upsetting me about reading what he wrote. If you just try to grab the good times in this life and use that as a goal you’re going to be severely disappointed.
    - leakycap 1y ago
      > If you just try to grab the good times in this life and use that as a goal you’re going to be severely disappointed. No, it sounds like you would be disappointed in that scenario. Many would be elated to get through this hell-hole relatively joyous & unscathed.
    - lukan 1y ago
      "And I want to live every last second of it." Glad for you. I really hope you never come into a situation that you wish for your life to end. But please take into account, that other people might experience life different at times. No one has a death wish, because things are a bit rough sometimes. But if life is constant hell and when there is no hope anymore. Then you wish for death to release you. (Also do you know what latestage cancer can mean? Constant pain that does not go away, ever. And Jesus might have been a real person, but that he choose crucification out of his own choice is very much part of the mythological story that other people told after his death)
- Viliam1234 1y ago
  > Suffering has a purpose Maybe some suffering has a purpose, and some suffering does not? It doesn't have to be always this or always that.

LorenPechtel 1y ago

Why do you see depression? Note the article mentions a partner--he lost his wife but he had found someone else so I do not think this is a result of losing his wife.

Noaidi 1y ago
I think it was this part that stuck out to me. “His partner died in 2018 as a result of vascular dementia. The loss affected him deeply.” I can see that loss affecting him even though he had a new partner. Depression does not always go away when you meet someone new. But I think people with depression have lost hope in the future. And it sounds like he lost Hope in his future.
- fn-mote 1y ago
  > it sounds like he lost hope in his future People in their 80's are watching their friends die one after the other. They aren't fooling themselves about their long-term prospects. No problems with enjoying life, I support that, but it's hard to believe the end isn't coming for you like it comes for everyone else. I just think this idea that it is "hope" or "depression" is wrong-headed. Having some older friends might give you a deeper perspective.
  - Noaidi 1y ago
    I am old. I have friends in their 70s and I have friends that died of cancer and suicide and heart attacks. I had a father who died terribly of a rapid spreading cancer and a mother who lived with chronic pain and heart disease for 30 years. I have friends who like me live in poverty some of them suffer from it, others of us don’t. If you lived in your 80s and you have not figured out what life is about then that’s not a problem with life, that’s a problem with the person who did not figure out life. This is the spiritual quest that I think is missing in the world right now. I’m not really being woo-woo here and I’m not talking about God or any other mythical being. I’m talking about the amazing thing that it is to be alive. Being alive is not just about happiness, but you can be joyous experiencing both happiness and suffering. Our suffering will end, and our happiness will end. Acceptance of the things you can’t change is the key here. I am no stoic that’s for sure. If you’re too hot, move into the shade. But if I have no shade and I’m suffering the heat, how much more happy am I going to be when I finally reach shade! It’s my friends who went through the deepest suffering that are the most happy and joyous. It’s these people who teach us about life, Not the people who kill themselves because they’re afraid of looking like an old man.