5 ms·

This is cool, I hope it gets finished, and Microsoft Can help if required. I love WSL2, I basically live in it. I need Office, and working laptops, too much to

This is cool, I hope it gets finished, and Microsoft Can help if required. I love WSL2, I basically live in it. I need Office, and working laptops, too much to go full time Linux, and I want to be able to play games so I don’t want a Mac (yes I know Mac has some games, but not anything compared to windows).

tiahura 1y ago
Right there with you. The crazy thing is that with the way MS is moving Office away from native towards garbage React, they're facilitation moving away from Windows.
- bombcar 1y ago
  I believe this is defensive to protect Office and their online services from Apple. They need Office to be a first-class citizen on Mac.
  - jen20 1y ago
    It used to be so first class that Excel 1.0 was only available for the Mac.
pjmlp 1y ago
I was already enjoying VMware Workstation and Virtual Box, depending on private vs corporate laptop, since returning to Windows as main on with Windows 7. What WSL has brought is that now it is one thing less to install. However what got me started with Linux back in 1995, was the not so great support of POSIX in Windows NT. Had Microsoft kept selling Xenix, or done Windows NT POSIX subsystem property, Linux would most likely never taken off. Quite ironic given how Bill Gates used to talk about Xenix taking over.
- toast0 1y ago
  > What WSL has brought is that now it is one thing less to install. How? You still have to install WSL, it's not on the machine out of the box, although if it's really just about not installing things, you might use Hyper-V, that may already be installed.
  - pjmlp 1y ago
    Hyper-V is required for the Windows 10 security improvements regarding kernel and drivers sandboxing, and even more so on Windows 11. Enabling WSL isn't the same as going through VMWare Workstation or Virtual Box installation, and naturally paying for the commercial features.
- canucker2016 1y ago
  Microsoft gave up on Xenix/Unix when AT&T took interest in a commercial Unix and exerting influence/control over the direction of Unix. Microsoft didn't see a profitable future in following AT&T.
  - pjmlp 1y ago
    See UNIX World magazine from 1985, the Bill Gates interview on the future of Xenix.
    - p_ing 1y ago
      Assuming you're talking about https://archive.org/details/Unix_World_Vol02_10.pdf/page/n21/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/Unix_World_Vol02_10.pdf/page/n21... ?
      - pjmlp 1y ago
        Yes, exactly.
walkabout 1y ago
There’s one major benefit to separating your gaming and work machines, if you aren’t also using a lot of graphics horsepower for work[0]: NVidia and AMD graphics cards tend to ~double major problems on a machine (or halve system stability, to put it another way). This was even true of Macs, back when they were on x86. Now, this won’t help if you play a lot of new games at launch (and aren’t ok playing them on a console instead of PC) or lots of multiplayer games with heavy-handed anti-cheat, but otherwise, Linux as a gaming OS has become pretty damn viable lately. Windows hasn’t been for anything but gaming for me since somewhere around the turn of the millennium, and I’ve just finally been able to ditch it completely. Which is really nice. What I’m getting at is all-Linux (if you have more tolerance for Linux on the Desktop jank than I do) or Mac-for-work, Linux-for-play are now both non-terrible combos for having gaming available, and unless you need Nvidia or AMD graphics on your work machine (in which case, sure, may as well share that hardware for both roles), there are real benefits to work-system stability you can get by separating those. (I do agree with you that running Linux under virtualization on either Windows or Mac is the only non-crazy-making and/or non-professionally-embarrassing way to work in Linux on a laptop, and I write that as someone who did run Linux on a laptop as my primary serious OS for most of a decade) [0] nb. depending on what “a lot” means, Apple Silicon with a lot of system memory might still be a really good option.
dijit 1y ago
Office is the true killer. Games are pretty much there for linux, reasonable stress about anti-cheat aside; but the network effects of Microsoft office are the real poison pill. The irony of course is that if it wasn’t for games you could have a good time using office on MacOS with their cut down versions: but no such version exists for Linux and FreeBSD. Since its purely network effects, I’ve taken to trying to promote Google Docs usage; since their tools anywhere with a modern browser, which is practically every modern desktop environment. I know its pushing another US tech giant, but somehow the network effects are less egregious.
- leoedin 1y ago
  The web versions of Office tools are pretty good these days. There’s a few missing features, but you can get by mostly. I don’t think my company even gives licenses for desktop office by default any more.
  - dijit 1y ago
    I get why you'd say the web versions are "pretty good" for most people, and I agree they've improved, but I think that's only true if you're doing basic stuff. The moment you hit a complex corporate or academic document, the web version of Office falls apart. It's materially worse than even LibreOffice when you consider a power user's reality. The real killer is Excel. The web version has zero support for crucial tools like Power Query or Power Pivot, which are essential for any modern data analysis. You can't run, edit, or even create serious VBA/Macros, and advanced data validation and conditional formatting are stripped down to the bone. For Word, if you're in law or academia, forget it. Features like Table of Authorities or Table of Figures are either completely missing or so simplified they are useless. Even the ability to handle standard APA or MLA citation styles is heavily cut down compared to the desktop app. And for PowerPoint? You lose access to serious third party add-ins, and the granular control over animations and timers that professionals need just isn't there. So, while the web version might be fine for a quick edit of a simple file, if you need to reliably work with a complex document from a Windows-based company, the compatibility issues and missing features will force you into a desktop app eventually. If you're going to be forced into a desktop experience anyway, you might as well bite the bullet and go LibreOffice for its feature completeness on Linux/FreeBSD. It's a stronger bet than relying on Microsoft's cut-down web versions.
MBCook 1y ago
I understand your reasoning. Personally I love living in my Mac, I’m much happier than I would be under Windows. You’re 100% right for gaming. But I’ve solved that by being a console person. I already mostly was. I’m much prefer the appliance like nature and many of the kinds of games that show up there. If I still wanted to play more “PC style“ games or just indie things that aren’t available on the consoles I would have a spare Windows machine just for that.

tiahura 1y ago

Right there with you. The crazy thing is that with the way MS is moving Office away from native towards garbage React, they're facilitation moving away from Windows.

bombcar 1y ago
I believe this is defensive to protect Office and their online services from Apple. They need Office to be a first-class citizen on Mac.
- jen20 1y ago
  It used to be so first class that Excel 1.0 was only available for the Mac.

pjmlp 1y ago

I was already enjoying VMware Workstation and Virtual Box, depending on private vs corporate laptop, since returning to Windows as main on with Windows 7. What WSL has brought is that now it is one thing less to install. However what got me started with Linux back in 1995, was the not so great support of POSIX in Windows NT. Had Microsoft kept selling Xenix, or done Windows NT POSIX subsystem property, Linux would most likely never taken off. Quite ironic given how Bill Gates used to talk about Xenix taking over.

toast0 1y ago
> What WSL has brought is that now it is one thing less to install. How? You still have to install WSL, it's not on the machine out of the box, although if it's really just about not installing things, you might use Hyper-V, that may already be installed.
- pjmlp 1y ago
  Hyper-V is required for the Windows 10 security improvements regarding kernel and drivers sandboxing, and even more so on Windows 11. Enabling WSL isn't the same as going through VMWare Workstation or Virtual Box installation, and naturally paying for the commercial features.
canucker2016 1y ago
Microsoft gave up on Xenix/Unix when AT&T took interest in a commercial Unix and exerting influence/control over the direction of Unix. Microsoft didn't see a profitable future in following AT&T.
- pjmlp 1y ago
  See UNIX World magazine from 1985, the Bill Gates interview on the future of Xenix.
  - p_ing 1y ago
    Assuming you're talking about https://archive.org/details/Unix_World_Vol02_10.pdf/page/n21/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/Unix_World_Vol02_10.pdf/page/n21... ?
    - pjmlp 1y ago
      Yes, exactly.

walkabout 1y ago

There’s one major benefit to separating your gaming and work machines, if you aren’t also using a lot of graphics horsepower for work[0]: NVidia and AMD graphics cards tend to ~double major problems on a machine (or halve system stability, to put it another way). This was even true of Macs, back when they were on x86. Now, this won’t help if you play a lot of new games at launch (and aren’t ok playing them on a console instead of PC) or lots of multiplayer games with heavy-handed anti-cheat, but otherwise, Linux as a gaming OS has become pretty damn viable lately. Windows hasn’t been for anything but gaming for me since somewhere around the turn of the millennium, and I’ve just finally been able to ditch it completely. Which is really nice. What I’m getting at is all-Linux (if you have more tolerance for Linux on the Desktop jank than I do) or Mac-for-work, Linux-for-play are now both non-terrible combos for having gaming available, and unless you need Nvidia or AMD graphics on your work machine (in which case, sure, may as well share that hardware for both roles), there are real benefits to work-system stability you can get by separating those. (I do agree with you that running Linux under virtualization on either Windows or Mac is the only non-crazy-making and/or non-professionally-embarrassing way to work in Linux on a laptop, and I write that as someone who did run Linux on a laptop as my primary serious OS for most of a decade) [0] nb. depending on what “a lot” means, Apple Silicon with a lot of system memory might still be a really good option.

dijit 1y ago

Office is the true killer. Games are pretty much there for linux, reasonable stress about anti-cheat aside; but the network effects of Microsoft office are the real poison pill. The irony of course is that if it wasn’t for games you could have a good time using office on MacOS with their cut down versions: but no such version exists for Linux and FreeBSD. Since its purely network effects, I’ve taken to trying to promote Google Docs usage; since their tools anywhere with a modern browser, which is practically every modern desktop environment. I know its pushing another US tech giant, but somehow the network effects are less egregious.

leoedin 1y ago
The web versions of Office tools are pretty good these days. There’s a few missing features, but you can get by mostly. I don’t think my company even gives licenses for desktop office by default any more.
- dijit 1y ago
  I get why you'd say the web versions are "pretty good" for most people, and I agree they've improved, but I think that's only true if you're doing basic stuff. The moment you hit a complex corporate or academic document, the web version of Office falls apart. It's materially worse than even LibreOffice when you consider a power user's reality. The real killer is Excel. The web version has zero support for crucial tools like Power Query or Power Pivot, which are essential for any modern data analysis. You can't run, edit, or even create serious VBA/Macros, and advanced data validation and conditional formatting are stripped down to the bone. For Word, if you're in law or academia, forget it. Features like Table of Authorities or Table of Figures are either completely missing or so simplified they are useless. Even the ability to handle standard APA or MLA citation styles is heavily cut down compared to the desktop app. And for PowerPoint? You lose access to serious third party add-ins, and the granular control over animations and timers that professionals need just isn't there. So, while the web version might be fine for a quick edit of a simple file, if you need to reliably work with a complex document from a Windows-based company, the compatibility issues and missing features will force you into a desktop app eventually. If you're going to be forced into a desktop experience anyway, you might as well bite the bullet and go LibreOffice for its feature completeness on Linux/FreeBSD. It's a stronger bet than relying on Microsoft's cut-down web versions.

MBCook 1y ago

I understand your reasoning. Personally I love living in my Mac, I’m much happier than I would be under Windows. You’re 100% right for gaming. But I’ve solved that by being a console person. I already mostly was. I’m much prefer the appliance like nature and many of the kinds of games that show up there. If I still wanted to play more “PC style“ games or just indie things that aren’t available on the consoles I would have a spare Windows machine just for that.