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You can quite easily draw a line that society does not get to force someone to live a tormented existence in spite of their prior declaration that they do not w

by cwillu 1y ago

You can quite easily draw a line that society does not get to force someone to live a tormented existence in spite of their prior declaration that they do not want to be tormented. “It shouldn't be that way” is not an excuse to torture people through your moralizing indifference to the fact that it is that way.

rkomorn 1y ago
I've wondered about this for my hypothetical future self. Currently? I'd say that I wouldn't want to live with dementia, but what if my "demented self" (kinda hate the phrasing, sorry) in the future wants to live, or doesn't remember they don't want to live? Do I have a say over the life of someone who doesn't remember they were me?
- tirant 1y ago
  You don’t have a say over your future you because your future you is not the same person as you.
  - rkomorn 1y ago
    That's what I lean towards, too.
dotnet00 1y ago
The entire issue they're pointing to is that deciding that someone's existence is sufficiently tormented is difficult and morally fraught.
- pantalaimon 1y ago
  If you visit an elderly care home you'll find plenty of people who express their wish that they don't want to live any longer. It's not getting better for them - they are just waiting for the day to come, often in agony.
  - account42 1y ago
    And don't you think the solution to that should be to not ship your parents to a care home rather than finishing the job by euthanizing them?
    - cwillu 1y ago
      Stop conflating “I don't want to live” with “I don't want my parents to live”.
Noaidi 1y ago
But do people who have dementia or say a mental illness have the capacity to make that decision? It sounds like Daniel Kahneman was suffering from depression after his wife's death and all he saw in the rest of his life was sadness. He had no hope. What day was the best day to die? What if the next day his hope came back?
- lukan 1y ago
  "What if the next day his hope came back?" What if he tried that, but every day just got worse than the last day? And people don't get any younger. My grandmother is 98. She hates her life since she could not go out anymore. But she is catholic and suicide would be a mortal sin. So she waits till gods take her. And suffers till then. I would make a different choice for sure. If life is hell and no one depends on me, why should I continue the suffering? (At the cost of others, if I would need help?) But my plan is of course to reach 120+ in good health. But if I decide I had enough, it will be my decision.
  - Noaidi 1y ago
    > What if he tried that, but every day just got worse than the last day? Anyone can say that about their life right now, can't they? How many people struggling today think that their life will get no better? Look at all those who made it through slavery, what hope did they have? Their hope came from their faith. Suffering has a purpose, this is something your grandmother understands through her faith. Buddhists understand this as well. Maybe the problem is not our suffering, but our lack of faith in others and in in something bigger than ourselves.
    - lukan 1y ago
      Well, but what if I ain't a christian nor a buddhist and don't think suffering as a normal living condition is necessary? (Can you proof it is? Also I don't think all christians/buddhists share that believe) So sure, suffering and pain are part of life. And accepting that helps a lot to not get stuck in that condition by avoiding painful things, you cannot avoid. "Anyone can say that about their life right now, can't they?" So no, not anyone is saying that. Only those with a death wish. And I don't consider having a death wish as a mental condition. It can of course result of a illness, but it can also be a consciouss wish and then finally a decision. And if other people decide they may not do this, but have to remain in their state of living hell, then this is just torture to me.

by cwillu 1y ago

rkomorn 1y ago

I've wondered about this for my hypothetical future self. Currently? I'd say that I wouldn't want to live with dementia, but what if my "demented self" (kinda hate the phrasing, sorry) in the future wants to live, or doesn't remember they don't want to live? Do I have a say over the life of someone who doesn't remember they were me?

tirant 1y ago
You don’t have a say over your future you because your future you is not the same person as you.
- rkomorn 1y ago
  That's what I lean towards, too.

dotnet00 1y ago

The entire issue they're pointing to is that deciding that someone's existence is sufficiently tormented is difficult and morally fraught.

pantalaimon 1y ago
If you visit an elderly care home you'll find plenty of people who express their wish that they don't want to live any longer. It's not getting better for them - they are just waiting for the day to come, often in agony.
- account42 1y ago
  And don't you think the solution to that should be to not ship your parents to a care home rather than finishing the job by euthanizing them?
  - cwillu 1y ago
    Stop conflating “I don't want to live” with “I don't want my parents to live”.

Noaidi 1y ago

But do people who have dementia or say a mental illness have the capacity to make that decision? It sounds like Daniel Kahneman was suffering from depression after his wife's death and all he saw in the rest of his life was sadness. He had no hope. What day was the best day to die? What if the next day his hope came back?

lukan 1y ago
"What if the next day his hope came back?" What if he tried that, but every day just got worse than the last day? And people don't get any younger. My grandmother is 98. She hates her life since she could not go out anymore. But she is catholic and suicide would be a mortal sin. So she waits till gods take her. And suffers till then. I would make a different choice for sure. If life is hell and no one depends on me, why should I continue the suffering? (At the cost of others, if I would need help?) But my plan is of course to reach 120+ in good health. But if I decide I had enough, it will be my decision.
- Noaidi 1y ago
  > What if he tried that, but every day just got worse than the last day? Anyone can say that about their life right now, can't they? How many people struggling today think that their life will get no better? Look at all those who made it through slavery, what hope did they have? Their hope came from their faith. Suffering has a purpose, this is something your grandmother understands through her faith. Buddhists understand this as well. Maybe the problem is not our suffering, but our lack of faith in others and in in something bigger than ourselves.
  - lukan 1y ago
    Well, but what if I ain't a christian nor a buddhist and don't think suffering as a normal living condition is necessary? (Can you proof it is? Also I don't think all christians/buddhists share that believe) So sure, suffering and pain are part of life. And accepting that helps a lot to not get stuck in that condition by avoiding painful things, you cannot avoid. "Anyone can say that about their life right now, can't they?" So no, not anyone is saying that. Only those with a death wish. And I don't consider having a death wish as a mental condition. It can of course result of a illness, but it can also be a consciouss wish and then finally a decision. And if other people decide they may not do this, but have to remain in their state of living hell, then this is just torture to me.