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We never lived in a truth biased world. This whole “post-truth” talking point exists because one power system is concerned about the erosion of their ability t

by mosura 1y ago

We never lived in a truth biased world. This whole “post-truth” talking point exists because one power system is concerned about the erosion of their ability to impose their pile of lies on a particular society. It is itself post-truth in nature. For cultures that were historically more honest this is more of a shock, but that only ever applied to a tiny minority globally.

exasperaited 1y ago
We lived at least in a consensus reality world, where most people with some basic education agreed on most things that were obviously true, and most people had a shared sense of the fuzzy boundaries of fact and opinion. We now do not, and it has nothing to do with power systems [0] and everything to do with a newfound facility to mislead at scale, which states and individuals alike will use. [0] except that elements of one power system —- west coast tech firms —- are inventing the very tools of this destruction of consensus.
- mosura 1y ago
  > most people with some basic education agreed on most things that were obviously true Indoctrination. Part of it is to make you not see it for what it is.
  - progval 1y ago
    Do you have examples of lies that the majority was indoctrinated to believe?
    - hn_throw_bs 1y ago
      [flagged]
    - mosura 1y ago
      Religion. The fact there is intense disagreement about what is “obviously true” between countries shows that this is still happening. The beliefs of the masses are simply shaped to suit political interests. Concrete example: “boys should be circumcised”. If the answer was objectively obvious to educated people why does the US have such a different position on it than Europe?
    - groundzeros2015 1y ago
      Belief in western liberalism and democracy
    - mallowdram 1y ago
      Any mythic/causal statement (lightning causes fire) is a lie of folk science.
- mallowdram 1y ago
  Mosura is correct, there was never a consensus reality world. Consensus post-domestication is built from coercion into centers. This requires a steady diet of myth or religion that explains phenomena. If you think consensus is agreeing that this particular god made that lightning, then consensus is ultimately devolutionary. Myth is unfortunately the basis for causality: this statement stands in for the correlational phenomena we're witnessing. Once we were subsumed by myth, status and hierarchy became dominant to truth statements. Look at everything you see here, status controls statements and their validity. There's never a correlational reality accessible through cause and effect statements competing for domination. The myth never solves the phenomena, but kicks it downstream into what appear to be more accurate forms like news. But if you study news, history, law etc, these are mythic constructions that embed cause and effect locally, rather than solve the initial phenomena (like murder). We have to face truth constructions are lures in folk science societies like ours, they are not valid. Science is not understood (correlational thinking) or accepted b a majority of the population anywhere on this planet.
AnimalMuppet 1y ago
We lived for a while in a world where reporters cared about the truth about the events they were reporting on. Now we live in a world where reporters care about their ability to mold what they report on to fit their preferred narrative. Those two worlds are not equivalent.
- mosura 1y ago
  > We lived for a while in a world where reporters cared about the truth about the events they were reporting on. You only lived in a world where you couldn’t tell that they didn’t. All that changed is your awareness of their biases.
  - AnimalMuppet 1y ago
    Nope. I mean, they always had biases, and they affected what they said, but much less so than today. Then they tried to not be affected by their biases, and now they don't. So, while it's not binary, it's as I said before: The difference really matters.
- groundzeros2015 1y ago
  It’s that their narrative formation was so dominant and without alternative that it just felt true.
- hearsathought 1y ago
  > We lived for a while in a world where reporters cared about the truth about the events they were reporting on. Who is we? I nor anyone I know never lived in such a world. Maybe there was a time when I was naive and brainwashed enough to believe we lived in such a world. But such a world never really existed. > Now we live in a world where reporters care about their ability to mold what they report on to fit their preferred narrative. It's always been that way. The oldest newspaper in the US ( NY Post ) was created by Alexander Hamilton to push his political agenda. Nothing has changed since. Newspapers exist to push the narrative of the elites who control them. > Those two worlds are not equivalent. Agreed. One of those world is a fantasy and the other is reality.

by mosura 1y ago

exasperaited 1y ago

We lived at least in a consensus reality world, where most people with some basic education agreed on most things that were obviously true, and most people had a shared sense of the fuzzy boundaries of fact and opinion. We now do not, and it has nothing to do with power systems [0] and everything to do with a newfound facility to mislead at scale, which states and individuals alike will use. [0] except that elements of one power system —- west coast tech firms —- are inventing the very tools of this destruction of consensus.

mosura 1y ago
> most people with some basic education agreed on most things that were obviously true Indoctrination. Part of it is to make you not see it for what it is.
- progval 1y ago
  Do you have examples of lies that the majority was indoctrinated to believe?
  - hn_throw_bs 1y ago
    [flagged]
  - mosura 1y ago
    Religion. The fact there is intense disagreement about what is “obviously true” between countries shows that this is still happening. The beliefs of the masses are simply shaped to suit political interests. Concrete example: “boys should be circumcised”. If the answer was objectively obvious to educated people why does the US have such a different position on it than Europe?
  - groundzeros2015 1y ago
    Belief in western liberalism and democracy
  - mallowdram 1y ago
    Any mythic/causal statement (lightning causes fire) is a lie of folk science.
mallowdram 1y ago
Mosura is correct, there was never a consensus reality world. Consensus post-domestication is built from coercion into centers. This requires a steady diet of myth or religion that explains phenomena. If you think consensus is agreeing that this particular god made that lightning, then consensus is ultimately devolutionary. Myth is unfortunately the basis for causality: this statement stands in for the correlational phenomena we're witnessing. Once we were subsumed by myth, status and hierarchy became dominant to truth statements. Look at everything you see here, status controls statements and their validity. There's never a correlational reality accessible through cause and effect statements competing for domination. The myth never solves the phenomena, but kicks it downstream into what appear to be more accurate forms like news. But if you study news, history, law etc, these are mythic constructions that embed cause and effect locally, rather than solve the initial phenomena (like murder). We have to face truth constructions are lures in folk science societies like ours, they are not valid. Science is not understood (correlational thinking) or accepted b a majority of the population anywhere on this planet.

AnimalMuppet 1y ago

We lived for a while in a world where reporters cared about the truth about the events they were reporting on. Now we live in a world where reporters care about their ability to mold what they report on to fit their preferred narrative. Those two worlds are not equivalent.

mosura 1y ago
> We lived for a while in a world where reporters cared about the truth about the events they were reporting on. You only lived in a world where you couldn’t tell that they didn’t. All that changed is your awareness of their biases.
- AnimalMuppet 1y ago
  Nope. I mean, they always had biases, and they affected what they said, but much less so than today. Then they tried to not be affected by their biases, and now they don't. So, while it's not binary, it's as I said before: The difference really matters.
groundzeros2015 1y ago
It’s that their narrative formation was so dominant and without alternative that it just felt true.
hearsathought 1y ago
> We lived for a while in a world where reporters cared about the truth about the events they were reporting on. Who is we? I nor anyone I know never lived in such a world. Maybe there was a time when I was naive and brainwashed enough to believe we lived in such a world. But such a world never really existed. > Now we live in a world where reporters care about their ability to mold what they report on to fit their preferred narrative. It's always been that way. The oldest newspaper in the US ( NY Post ) was created by Alexander Hamilton to push his political agenda. Nothing has changed since. Newspapers exist to push the narrative of the elites who control them. > Those two worlds are not equivalent. Agreed. One of those world is a fantasy and the other is reality.