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> That cynicism is one the explicit goals of Russian propaganda. I don’t need Russia to tell me to be cynical of the western political situation.

by Aeolun 1y ago

ahofmann 1y ago
Well, do you? Where does the cynicism against the political situation come from? I think europes reality is much better, than the poisoned discourse makes us believe.
- lnsru 1y ago
  I am in Germany and I don’t need troll farms to poison my worldview. It’s enough to go to the local school where swimming pool is closed, because there is no money. It’s enough to go to all hands meeting at work to get new location in best cost country presented. It’s enough to try finding specialized doctor and realizing, that my public health insurance allows me to see the doctor in April 2026. I just don’t think it’s the way it should be in a first world country. Obviously something does not work despite people actively voting in every election.
  - ahofmann 1y ago
    Yes, all of this is true. But it is also true that the poisoned discourse makes things look much worse than they really are. To reframe it: changing these bad situations is easier than it seems. It’s not easy, but many people feel as if change were impossible. I believe this feeling of hopelessness is one of the main reasons why political and financial fascists can rise. They yell that the world is falling apart and that they have the (final) solution. Russian bot farms amplify this narrative, helping massively to weaken democratic societies. This is an information war and Europe has been losing it for about 10 to 20 years.
    - lnsru 1y ago
      I don’t know if any change is possible. I definitely can’t repair school, nor make the Deutsche Bahn trains run on time. Health and retirement “insurance” are getting more and more expensive every year. The single thing I can try is to accumulate some wealth despite government squeezing me out. Then get some car and avoid dysfunctional public transportation. Pay doctors by myself and not through failing public health insurance. Buy rental real estate and don’t wait anything from failing retirement system. There are just too many objective things that can be well measured. Grocery shopping bills, utility bills, payslips. Even job ads for hardware developers like me. I quit television as a teen and newspapers during 2014 Ukraine war. The west makes ruzzian troll farms easy life. Does democracy still work? I often provoke German colleagues and ask who voted for 5 millions new immigrants into welfare system during last 10 years. Nobody gave me positive answer. So what’s happening? Voters obviously get what they don’t want. Nobody voted for falling apart infrastructure. I started thinking about offroad suspension and tires for my car. I regularly visit my older neighbors and have a chat, old people see the same. And have statistics. They remember the years when there was no train at all. When the train run every 4 hours, when the train came every 30 minutes and when chaos started 2 decades ago. Maybe there are enough internal factors that weaken so called democratic societies and ruzzian trolls are only very minor factor. Deindustrialization in Germany can be seen on plain sight and well paid positions will never come back: https://group.mercedes-benz.com/company/news/mercedes-benz-vans-production-network.html https://group.mercedes-benz.com/company/news/mercedes-benz-v... Edit: probably wrong link. Sprinter production goes to Poland. Apparently German production is too expensive.
      - twixfel 1y ago
        Germany just has terrible demographics. Fill a country with old people and you get Germany, of course things are falling apart. It doesn’t mean democracy doesn’t work, it just means the elderly are voting for higher and higher pensions at the cost of everyone working.
realusername 1y ago
Well, apparently Russia needs it, I received at least 3 propaganda messages from him globally sent on Telegram.
devjab 1y ago
I'm Danish, chat control has it's origin in a proposal from my politicians. It's been revoked because there was no support. The major reason it was revoked was because of the strong German stance against it. It's currently backfiring in the hands of the politicians who suggested it. In Denmarj we seem to often be on the wrong side of internet freedom, and I think we should all criticize that. Only it's not black and white, because we're also one of the most pro-free-speech countries in the world. I know the world is often turned black and white on the internet, but if you're always painting the black, then that doesn't help the debate. I think that is what Pavel does. Look at how he mentions chat control, but not that it was turned down and revoked. Then directly goes on to criticize Germany (who shut down chat control) for being anti freedom. He doesn't say anything that is wrong. Due to their history, Germany does not allow you to say anything you want about their politicians, deny history or praise nazism. It's that same history that makes Germany such strong proponents for privacy though, because they've lived the Surveillance state before it was cool. That is what has turned Germany is a privacy haven on par with Sweden, but where does Pavel ever mention that? For that is the main issue with people like Pavel. It's not that the message is wrong. The internet has become mainly controlled by a couple of SoMe companies which are controlled by the aristocracy. It's that he polarizes it, but only against the west. I get why he wouldn't criticize Russia even if he wanted to, but he's certainly not walking the walk, is he? The fact that he spreads the message on X just makes it even more hypocritical. (If you think that part about X is me being "woke", please keep in mind that Twitter banned Trump.)

> That cynicism is one the explicit goals of Russian propaganda. I don’t need Russia to tell me to be cynical of the western political situation.

by Aeolun 1y ago

> That cynicism is one the explicit goals of Russian propaganda. I don’t need Russia to tell me to be cynical of the western political situation.

ahofmann 1y ago

Well, do you? Where does the cynicism against the political situation come from? I think europes reality is much better, than the poisoned discourse makes us believe.

lnsru 1y ago
I am in Germany and I don’t need troll farms to poison my worldview. It’s enough to go to the local school where swimming pool is closed, because there is no money. It’s enough to go to all hands meeting at work to get new location in best cost country presented. It’s enough to try finding specialized doctor and realizing, that my public health insurance allows me to see the doctor in April 2026. I just don’t think it’s the way it should be in a first world country. Obviously something does not work despite people actively voting in every election.
- ahofmann 1y ago
  Yes, all of this is true. But it is also true that the poisoned discourse makes things look much worse than they really are. To reframe it: changing these bad situations is easier than it seems. It’s not easy, but many people feel as if change were impossible. I believe this feeling of hopelessness is one of the main reasons why political and financial fascists can rise. They yell that the world is falling apart and that they have the (final) solution. Russian bot farms amplify this narrative, helping massively to weaken democratic societies. This is an information war and Europe has been losing it for about 10 to 20 years.
  - lnsru 1y ago
    I don’t know if any change is possible. I definitely can’t repair school, nor make the Deutsche Bahn trains run on time. Health and retirement “insurance” are getting more and more expensive every year. The single thing I can try is to accumulate some wealth despite government squeezing me out. Then get some car and avoid dysfunctional public transportation. Pay doctors by myself and not through failing public health insurance. Buy rental real estate and don’t wait anything from failing retirement system. There are just too many objective things that can be well measured. Grocery shopping bills, utility bills, payslips. Even job ads for hardware developers like me. I quit television as a teen and newspapers during 2014 Ukraine war. The west makes ruzzian troll farms easy life. Does democracy still work? I often provoke German colleagues and ask who voted for 5 millions new immigrants into welfare system during last 10 years. Nobody gave me positive answer. So what’s happening? Voters obviously get what they don’t want. Nobody voted for falling apart infrastructure. I started thinking about offroad suspension and tires for my car. I regularly visit my older neighbors and have a chat, old people see the same. And have statistics. They remember the years when there was no train at all. When the train run every 4 hours, when the train came every 30 minutes and when chaos started 2 decades ago. Maybe there are enough internal factors that weaken so called democratic societies and ruzzian trolls are only very minor factor. Deindustrialization in Germany can be seen on plain sight and well paid positions will never come back: https://group.mercedes-benz.com/company/news/mercedes-benz-vans-production-network.html https://group.mercedes-benz.com/company/news/mercedes-benz-v... Edit: probably wrong link. Sprinter production goes to Poland. Apparently German production is too expensive.
    - twixfel 1y ago
      Germany just has terrible demographics. Fill a country with old people and you get Germany, of course things are falling apart. It doesn’t mean democracy doesn’t work, it just means the elderly are voting for higher and higher pensions at the cost of everyone working.

realusername 1y ago

Well, apparently Russia needs it, I received at least 3 propaganda messages from him globally sent on Telegram.

devjab 1y ago

I'm Danish, chat control has it's origin in a proposal from my politicians. It's been revoked because there was no support. The major reason it was revoked was because of the strong German stance against it. It's currently backfiring in the hands of the politicians who suggested it. In Denmarj we seem to often be on the wrong side of internet freedom, and I think we should all criticize that. Only it's not black and white, because we're also one of the most pro-free-speech countries in the world. I know the world is often turned black and white on the internet, but if you're always painting the black, then that doesn't help the debate. I think that is what Pavel does. Look at how he mentions chat control, but not that it was turned down and revoked. Then directly goes on to criticize Germany (who shut down chat control) for being anti freedom. He doesn't say anything that is wrong. Due to their history, Germany does not allow you to say anything you want about their politicians, deny history or praise nazism. It's that same history that makes Germany such strong proponents for privacy though, because they've lived the Surveillance state before it was cool. That is what has turned Germany is a privacy haven on par with Sweden, but where does Pavel ever mention that? For that is the main issue with people like Pavel. It's not that the message is wrong. The internet has become mainly controlled by a couple of SoMe companies which are controlled by the aristocracy. It's that he polarizes it, but only against the west. I get why he wouldn't criticize Russia even if he wanted to, but he's certainly not walking the walk, is he? The fact that he spreads the message on X just makes it even more hypocritical. (If you think that part about X is me being "woke", please keep in mind that Twitter banned Trump.)