5 ms·

So what should happen when Docs lie about what procedures they did? Because it happens quite frequently and for some reason is always left out of these discussi

So what should happen when Docs lie about what procedures they did? Because it happens quite frequently and for some reason is always left out of these discussions.

Pet_Ant 1y ago
Man, it's almost like healthcare and human lives shouldn't be for profit...
- pastor_williams 1y ago
  "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest."
  - jasonlotito 1y ago
    Exactly. Glad you agree it shouldn't be for profit, either.
    - pastor_williams 1y ago
      I have no problem with it being for profit. The issue is the alignment of interests and the thumb on the scales by government and vested interests. If health insurance worked like car insurance I think we'd be in a better state.
      - kbelder 1y ago
        I wish health care worked like veterinary care. Except, now, veterinary care is becoming more like human health care, and it sucks.
        nocoiner 1y ago
        Vets are really the most amazing doctors and I hate to see what is happening to their industry. Hopefully in exchange for dealing with the bullshit of human health care, at least maybe the money is getting a little better for them (a lot of them are just criminally underpaid).
      - jasonlotito 1y ago
        > I have no problem with it being for profit. That's not what your quote says. Quite the opposite. > The issue is the alignment of interests Exactly. Which is why I think we should be guided by the constitution and not greed.
- philipallstar 1y ago
  Find some doctors, nurses, researchers, manufacturers etc etc who will work for no money and we can remove money from the problem.
  - jasonlotito 1y ago
    > Find some doctors, nurses, researchers, manufacturers etc etc who will work for no money and we can remove money from the problem. Not being for profit doesn't mean you don't pay people. Further, I wonder how the Sixth Amendment works then? So many non-profit people working for... no money? This "work for no money argument" is so incredibly weak, I had to make sure I quoted the argument so the person wouldn't change it.
    - philipallstar 1y ago
      Eventually everyone works for profit if they get paid. Spending time only is pure profit in money.
      - iamnothere 1y ago
        A reasonable wage or salary isn’t usually considered “profit” in a legal sense. This is why nonprofits can still pay employees. Any money that is left over after costs (including wages/salaries) needs to be reinvested, spent on the organizational mission, or held for future use, not distributed through dividends or other distributions as in a for-profit enterprise.
        JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > reasonable wage or salary isn’t usually considered “profit” in a legal sense This is a semantic punt to the word “reasonable.”
        iamnothere 1y ago
        The IRS has some guidelines that they use to decide what is “reasonable” but they don’t give out whatever actual formula or process they use to determine this. It’s supposed to be based on industry averages (more or less) but in reality it’s hard to determine what exactly that means. Generally you are “safe” paying in an industry average range, but if outside that range you need legal and accounting support to back up your own assessment.
- some_random 1y ago
  You're welcome to come up with an alternative system of aligning interests, so far all of the other ones have failed horrifically.
  - sensanaty 1y ago
    I live in NL. I pay 130 euros a month for my health insurance, and a max of 375 yearly on deductibles should I accrue some costs. The only reason I pay 130 is because I earn above a certain number, otherwise it's discounted and even free at a certain level (and I opted into the more expensive tier to also have dental coverage). In my case, my employer even pays for my insurance so in reality I don't even pay anything monthly (that's rare here though). I recently did an in-depth sleep study, got a CPAP machine prescribed to me, free replacement filters and replacement tubes + mask for it whenever I need them. I also got xrays and CT scans because of a foot injury around the same time. I also got comprehensive blood tests done. None of it cost me a penny other than the ~100 euros a month, the doctors and GPs are paid well, the quality of care I received was exceptional, and in the worst case scenario possible I would've only paid 375 euros max. My mother in law has osteoporosis and a number of other chronic illnesses, so she has to see specialists quite often. The quality of care she receives is similarly excellent to the one I received, and due to her disability her healthcare is partially covered as well. It's not perfect of course, but it sure does beat all the horror stories you often hear coming from across the pond of people ending up in lifelong medical debt should, God forbid, something happen to them that they realistically have no control over. So I'm sorry, but I don't buy that the for-profit fucked up system you guys have going on over there is the best of the lot, especially if you're an average Joe and not someone from SV earning obscene amounts.
    - hibikir 1y ago
      "Healthcare that isn't for profit" doesn't mean just a national health insurance. Just that as a random citizen you are shielded from seeing all the same issues underneath. The pharma companies, test providers, equipment makers and personnel are all making profits. I bet the total amount paid is higher that 130 euros a month. There's profit all through the system, so claims that healthcare should not be for profit are silly. Now, what happens is that the profits have to be kept in check, either via price controls or sufficient competition. It's not hard to argue that the choices made in the US are quite suboptimal, but it's far more of a regulatory problem than purely a matter of people making money. If nobody makes money, there's no healthcare.

So what should happen when Docs lie about what procedures they did? Because it happens quite frequently and for some reason is always left out of these discussions.

Pet_Ant 1y ago

Man, it's almost like healthcare and human lives shouldn't be for profit...

pastor_williams 1y ago
"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest."
- jasonlotito 1y ago
  Exactly. Glad you agree it shouldn't be for profit, either.
  - pastor_williams 1y ago
    I have no problem with it being for profit. The issue is the alignment of interests and the thumb on the scales by government and vested interests. If health insurance worked like car insurance I think we'd be in a better state.
    - kbelder 1y ago
      I wish health care worked like veterinary care. Except, now, veterinary care is becoming more like human health care, and it sucks.
      - nocoiner 1y ago
        Vets are really the most amazing doctors and I hate to see what is happening to their industry. Hopefully in exchange for dealing with the bullshit of human health care, at least maybe the money is getting a little better for them (a lot of them are just criminally underpaid).
    - jasonlotito 1y ago
      > I have no problem with it being for profit. That's not what your quote says. Quite the opposite. > The issue is the alignment of interests Exactly. Which is why I think we should be guided by the constitution and not greed.
philipallstar 1y ago
Find some doctors, nurses, researchers, manufacturers etc etc who will work for no money and we can remove money from the problem.
- jasonlotito 1y ago
  > Find some doctors, nurses, researchers, manufacturers etc etc who will work for no money and we can remove money from the problem. Not being for profit doesn't mean you don't pay people. Further, I wonder how the Sixth Amendment works then? So many non-profit people working for... no money? This "work for no money argument" is so incredibly weak, I had to make sure I quoted the argument so the person wouldn't change it.
  - philipallstar 1y ago
    Eventually everyone works for profit if they get paid. Spending time only is pure profit in money.
    - iamnothere 1y ago
      A reasonable wage or salary isn’t usually considered “profit” in a legal sense. This is why nonprofits can still pay employees. Any money that is left over after costs (including wages/salaries) needs to be reinvested, spent on the organizational mission, or held for future use, not distributed through dividends or other distributions as in a for-profit enterprise.
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > reasonable wage or salary isn’t usually considered “profit” in a legal sense This is a semantic punt to the word “reasonable.”
        iamnothere 1y ago
        The IRS has some guidelines that they use to decide what is “reasonable” but they don’t give out whatever actual formula or process they use to determine this. It’s supposed to be based on industry averages (more or less) but in reality it’s hard to determine what exactly that means. Generally you are “safe” paying in an industry average range, but if outside that range you need legal and accounting support to back up your own assessment.
some_random 1y ago
You're welcome to come up with an alternative system of aligning interests, so far all of the other ones have failed horrifically.
- sensanaty 1y ago
  I live in NL. I pay 130 euros a month for my health insurance, and a max of 375 yearly on deductibles should I accrue some costs. The only reason I pay 130 is because I earn above a certain number, otherwise it's discounted and even free at a certain level (and I opted into the more expensive tier to also have dental coverage). In my case, my employer even pays for my insurance so in reality I don't even pay anything monthly (that's rare here though). I recently did an in-depth sleep study, got a CPAP machine prescribed to me, free replacement filters and replacement tubes + mask for it whenever I need them. I also got xrays and CT scans because of a foot injury around the same time. I also got comprehensive blood tests done. None of it cost me a penny other than the ~100 euros a month, the doctors and GPs are paid well, the quality of care I received was exceptional, and in the worst case scenario possible I would've only paid 375 euros max. My mother in law has osteoporosis and a number of other chronic illnesses, so she has to see specialists quite often. The quality of care she receives is similarly excellent to the one I received, and due to her disability her healthcare is partially covered as well. It's not perfect of course, but it sure does beat all the horror stories you often hear coming from across the pond of people ending up in lifelong medical debt should, God forbid, something happen to them that they realistically have no control over. So I'm sorry, but I don't buy that the for-profit fucked up system you guys have going on over there is the best of the lot, especially if you're an average Joe and not someone from SV earning obscene amounts.
  - hibikir 1y ago
    "Healthcare that isn't for profit" doesn't mean just a national health insurance. Just that as a random citizen you are shielded from seeing all the same issues underneath. The pharma companies, test providers, equipment makers and personnel are all making profits. I bet the total amount paid is higher that 130 euros a month. There's profit all through the system, so claims that healthcare should not be for profit are silly. Now, what happens is that the profits have to be kept in check, either via price controls or sufficient competition. It's not hard to argue that the choices made in the US are quite suboptimal, but it's far more of a regulatory problem than purely a matter of people making money. If nobody makes money, there's no healthcare.