6 ms·

Me as engineer: it's wild a big corporation dictates a quality bar and limit API access for 3rd party software. Me as customer: oh man I'm sure glad stuff is r

Me as engineer: it's wild a big corporation dictates a quality bar and limit API access for 3rd party software. Me as customer: oh man I'm sure glad stuff is reviewed to some quality bar and the OS limits API access.

isodev 1y ago
Me as customer: having trouble using the likes of GitHub and Threads using the "OS sanctioned browser"
- cosmic_cheese 1y ago
  That's on nobody except Microsoft and Meta for testing against Chromium only.
  - isodev 1y ago
    Person in tech me is in conflict with customer me as to who is to blame. Maybe system imposed browser/agent defaults were a mistake after all.
    - dylan604 1y ago
      So it's okay for a website builder to test in only one browser defaulting to an imposed browser/agent restriction?
      - mmis1000 1y ago
        The point is they are not even compliment to their "own" spec. They are part of whatwg. But if you ever write web page. You will know it's always the safari that differs from the spec. Firefox in the other end never have such issue. Write a page on chrome, works 90% on Firefox. But will likely works 10% on safari. Supports safari literally means support another browser (by workaround all its bugs).
        evilduck 1y ago
        Those are some exaggerated beyond belief numbers you just made up. Some of us also work in web development and know better.
        mmis1000 1y ago
        It's not even exaggerated, the ticket count about safari on my board is almost higher than sum of every other browser in total. I 100% just want this browser die if apple ever allow other browser on ios.
        evilduck 1y ago
        I mean that could be "two Safari tickets" for all we know, and you could be ignorantly chasing Chrome's ChromeOS un-standards or bleeding edge RFCs thinking a reference implementation or a mere memo should work everywhere. Personally, I almost never see Safari-specific bugs be reported and can't find one in my company's JIRA system in the last year. Are you sure you're not self-inflicting this pain? Your desire for Safari to vanish is also historically short sighted. Ladybird has near-zero usage, Firefox is practically dead and is fully bought and paid for by Google, everything else is just a Chrome or Chromium fork. Safari is realistically the only thing holding back an outright Chrome monopoly with meaningful usage.
        mmis1000 1y ago
        The safari literally broke border-radius of image whenever a opacity transition is triggered. It's the simplest effect you will see everyday. Or broke layer of position: fixed element when containing container is scrolled. They aren't even new features and exists since like 10 year ago? And it's still broken that requires specific workaround. Or on ios 26(the one just released). Every page that added to ios home screen is no longer able to play video at all if you close it and open it the second time. The list can go on infinitely if I ever want to dig up. When is the crap even usable? There isn't a way to not hit bugs at all unless your page is extremely barebone and require little interaction. Besides these, the service worker debugger never work on my iphone device since like two major version ago.(It did not show up in the safari menu) There is no way to use it as a developer even I want to (let alone the devtool crashes and disconnects frequently)
      - thunderfork 1y ago
        [dead]
  - concinds 1y ago
    It was a bug in WebKit that WebKit had to fix (and as you know, Safari takes a long time getting those fixes into consumer's hands).
    - mmis1000 1y ago
      > takes a long time If it even does.
    - Klonoar 1y ago
      Both those sites existed - either in practice or in concept - for well over a decade now. If the giant mega corporation behind those products is blaming WebKit, maybe they should instead devote some engineering resources to just work around the bug. Testing in non-Chrome browsers should identify anything like this before stuff ships. It is legitimately not hard to do.
concinds 1y ago
Me as a consumer: - browsers having to go through Apple means slower updates (including for bugs or security), not needed on Mac or any other platform - Apple forces every alternative-engine browser to use a pretty broken framework that Safari does not use, not needed on Mac or any other platform - Apple's restrictions on alternative engines in the EU are a vast list of malicious compliance[0], making those engines a theoretical academic exercise, so they're definitely still fucking you as a consumer. [0]: https://open-web-advocacy.org/blog/apples-browser-engine-ban-persists-even-under-the-dma/ https://open-web-advocacy.org/blog/apples-browser-engine-ban...
- ryandrake 1y ago
  Those views are "you as a developer." Very few actual end users think about or care about any of these things.
  - echelon 1y ago
    The consumer can't articulate policy. Consumers in a general sense don't know much of how the world works - safe radiation exposure, food safety, drug dosing thermodynamics, household electrical wiring, airborne particulate, airline maintenance... This is why we have a government regulatory regime to protect them. The government has to strong arm companies out of bad behavior, because consumers do not understand. Some people who have Apple and Google stock will voice opinion against regulation. Or people who really love their devices and don't understand the harms. But the fact is that this Titanic command of markets damages the robustness of the economy. Google and Apple are doing massive harm. Capitalism should be hard. It should be a treadmill. You shouldn't be able to coast. We like the market. We like evolutionary pressure. Giants this large, however, are an ecological hack that get to escape the same algorithm we subject every other company to. They created an artificial and illegal means to prevent themselves from facing competition. They're an invasive species picking on ecosystems that literally cannot fight back. It's a good thing that new companies can (or could) threaten old companies. It's a renewing forest fire, a de-ossification. It rewards innovation capital rather than institutions. Apple and Google have found a way to forever avoid this by wedging themselves in as "owners of mobile computing". These two companies own it. Period. You don't. Consumers don't. No other company can even enter into the arena. You play by their rules. Antitrust enforcement has never been more needed. We've had two decades of devices we really only rent and don't own. Devices that strangle consumer control over how we spend our time and money. If America doesn't do it, foreign countries seeking sovereignty should.
mmis1000 1y ago
Me as engineer: does apple even pass the bar by their own? I hit shit tons of safari only bug that is 100% non web-compliment. Some are so stupid that as a normal person writing web pages must have ran into it already.
luxuryballs 1y ago
also me as an engineer: I hope it’s the correct 90%!
SilverElfin 1y ago
It’s not wild, it is anti-competitive and entirely about maintaining control in unfair ways
beeflet 1y ago
You couldn't figure out by yourself not to use a dysfunctional browser?

isodev 1y ago

Me as customer: having trouble using the likes of GitHub and Threads using the "OS sanctioned browser"

cosmic_cheese 1y ago
That's on nobody except Microsoft and Meta for testing against Chromium only.
- isodev 1y ago
  Person in tech me is in conflict with customer me as to who is to blame. Maybe system imposed browser/agent defaults were a mistake after all.
  - dylan604 1y ago
    So it's okay for a website builder to test in only one browser defaulting to an imposed browser/agent restriction?
    - mmis1000 1y ago
      The point is they are not even compliment to their "own" spec. They are part of whatwg. But if you ever write web page. You will know it's always the safari that differs from the spec. Firefox in the other end never have such issue. Write a page on chrome, works 90% on Firefox. But will likely works 10% on safari. Supports safari literally means support another browser (by workaround all its bugs).
      - evilduck 1y ago
        Those are some exaggerated beyond belief numbers you just made up. Some of us also work in web development and know better.
        mmis1000 1y ago
        It's not even exaggerated, the ticket count about safari on my board is almost higher than sum of every other browser in total. I 100% just want this browser die if apple ever allow other browser on ios.
        evilduck 1y ago
        I mean that could be "two Safari tickets" for all we know, and you could be ignorantly chasing Chrome's ChromeOS un-standards or bleeding edge RFCs thinking a reference implementation or a mere memo should work everywhere. Personally, I almost never see Safari-specific bugs be reported and can't find one in my company's JIRA system in the last year. Are you sure you're not self-inflicting this pain? Your desire for Safari to vanish is also historically short sighted. Ladybird has near-zero usage, Firefox is practically dead and is fully bought and paid for by Google, everything else is just a Chrome or Chromium fork. Safari is realistically the only thing holding back an outright Chrome monopoly with meaningful usage.
        mmis1000 1y ago
        The safari literally broke border-radius of image whenever a opacity transition is triggered. It's the simplest effect you will see everyday. Or broke layer of position: fixed element when containing container is scrolled. They aren't even new features and exists since like 10 year ago? And it's still broken that requires specific workaround. Or on ios 26(the one just released). Every page that added to ios home screen is no longer able to play video at all if you close it and open it the second time. The list can go on infinitely if I ever want to dig up. When is the crap even usable? There isn't a way to not hit bugs at all unless your page is extremely barebone and require little interaction. Besides these, the service worker debugger never work on my iphone device since like two major version ago.(It did not show up in the safari menu) There is no way to use it as a developer even I want to (let alone the devtool crashes and disconnects frequently)
    - thunderfork 1y ago
      [dead]
- concinds 1y ago
  It was a bug in WebKit that WebKit had to fix (and as you know, Safari takes a long time getting those fixes into consumer's hands).
  - mmis1000 1y ago
    > takes a long time If it even does.
  - Klonoar 1y ago
    Both those sites existed - either in practice or in concept - for well over a decade now. If the giant mega corporation behind those products is blaming WebKit, maybe they should instead devote some engineering resources to just work around the bug. Testing in non-Chrome browsers should identify anything like this before stuff ships. It is legitimately not hard to do.

concinds 1y ago

Me as a consumer: - browsers having to go through Apple means slower updates (including for bugs or security), not needed on Mac or any other platform - Apple forces every alternative-engine browser to use a pretty broken framework that Safari does not use, not needed on Mac or any other platform - Apple's restrictions on alternative engines in the EU are a vast list of malicious compliance[0], making those engines a theoretical academic exercise, so they're definitely still fucking you as a consumer. [0]: https://open-web-advocacy.org/blog/apples-browser-engine-ban-persists-even-under-the-dma/ https://open-web-advocacy.org/blog/apples-browser-engine-ban...

ryandrake 1y ago
Those views are "you as a developer." Very few actual end users think about or care about any of these things.
- echelon 1y ago
  The consumer can't articulate policy. Consumers in a general sense don't know much of how the world works - safe radiation exposure, food safety, drug dosing thermodynamics, household electrical wiring, airborne particulate, airline maintenance... This is why we have a government regulatory regime to protect them. The government has to strong arm companies out of bad behavior, because consumers do not understand. Some people who have Apple and Google stock will voice opinion against regulation. Or people who really love their devices and don't understand the harms. But the fact is that this Titanic command of markets damages the robustness of the economy. Google and Apple are doing massive harm. Capitalism should be hard. It should be a treadmill. You shouldn't be able to coast. We like the market. We like evolutionary pressure. Giants this large, however, are an ecological hack that get to escape the same algorithm we subject every other company to. They created an artificial and illegal means to prevent themselves from facing competition. They're an invasive species picking on ecosystems that literally cannot fight back. It's a good thing that new companies can (or could) threaten old companies. It's a renewing forest fire, a de-ossification. It rewards innovation capital rather than institutions. Apple and Google have found a way to forever avoid this by wedging themselves in as "owners of mobile computing". These two companies own it. Period. You don't. Consumers don't. No other company can even enter into the arena. You play by their rules. Antitrust enforcement has never been more needed. We've had two decades of devices we really only rent and don't own. Devices that strangle consumer control over how we spend our time and money. If America doesn't do it, foreign countries seeking sovereignty should.

mmis1000 1y ago

Me as engineer: does apple even pass the bar by their own? I hit shit tons of safari only bug that is 100% non web-compliment. Some are so stupid that as a normal person writing web pages must have ran into it already.

luxuryballs 1y ago

also me as an engineer: I hope it’s the correct 90%!

SilverElfin 1y ago

It’s not wild, it is anti-competitive and entirely about maintaining control in unfair ways

beeflet 1y ago

You couldn't figure out by yourself not to use a dysfunctional browser?