3 ms·

China is also 30 times larger in area than germany.

paulmist 1y ago
It is! Their biggest solar farms are also in the Inner Mongolia where the irradiance is twice what you get in Germany. That said the sheer scale is crazy!
- slaw 1y ago
  Inner Mongolia is so far from populated areas that China build 2000 km electric power lines, as long as a car drive from Munich to Sicily.
  - kragen 1y ago
    The Messina Strait Bridge doesn't actually exist. Perhaps you are driving a hovercraft.
    - slaw 1y ago
      Ferries don't exist.
      - kragen 1y ago
        I imagined them.
    - SapporoChris 1y ago
      https://maps.app.goo.gl/wnyt5nPeiETVsEpP9 https://maps.app.goo.gl/wnyt5nPeiETVsEpP9
kragen 1y ago
Yes, but until recently, Germany produced more electricity than China did.
- ffsm8 1y ago
  You're not getting his point. Germany has a space problem. There aren't large swaths of land available to put solar panels on. Added to that you have to realize just how far north Germany is, and consequently how... Bad solar is because of that. Seriously, dropping down the same amount of panels gets you significantly less electricity in Germany then where China is building them, much closer to the equator. Overall, Germany is in a shit place for renewable energy
  - slow_typist 1y ago
    Pretty bad place for fossil fuel extraction, too.
  - kragen 1y ago
    For many years I have been writing about how bad Germany is for solar panels because of, mostly, how far north it is. Specifically, the capacity factor for utility-scale solar in Germany has historically been about 10%, which is mostly because of the unfavorable latitude and cloudiness. You can see this quantified at https://solargis.com/resources/free-maps-and-gis-data?locality=germany https://solargis.com/resources/free-maps-and-gis-data?locali.... The capacity factor for utility-scale solar in China has actually also historically been about 10%, and I have no idea why that is. You are certainly correct that it ought to be much better, because China gets so much more sun. You can see that quantified at https://solargis.com/resources/free-maps-and-gis-data?locality=china https://solargis.com/resources/free-maps-and-gis-data?locali.... However, Germany does not have a space problem. Germany is 357'114km² with "photovoltaic electricity potential" of about 3.0kWh/kWp/day according to Solargis (see above link), which would be a capacity factor of 12.5%. I'm not quite sure how they calculate that, but multiplying by the country's area, the solar constant of 1000W/m², and a fudge factor of 0.8, it works out to something on the order of 30–40 terawatts, electric. That's roughly 50% to 100% more than the entire world's marketed energy consumption, which is about 18 terawatts, about a third of it electric. Germany produced 488.5 TWh in 02024 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Germany) which is 55.73GW. Therefore, roughly 0.2% of Germany's land area would suffice to produce all of its current electrical consumption with solar energy, about 700km². This would also require something like 450 gigawatts (peak) of solar panels, which would cost about €45 billion at today's prices, roughly 4 days of Germany's GDP. It is absolutely true that, if you put those same solar panels in the Mojave Desert, mounted with single-axis trackers, they would produce two or three times as much power. (California's average utility-scale solar capacity factor was over 29% last I checked.) So, yes, solar is much more expensive in Germany. But if you check out https://www.solarserver.de/photovoltaik-preis-pv-modul-preisindex/ https://www.solarserver.de/photovoltaik-preis-pv-modul-preis... you will see that, in March 02023, solar modules cost three times as much as they do now. So solar generation in California then cost what solar generation in Germany costs now. (Except that, because of Biden's anti-renewable-energy tariffs, actual California prices were and are much higher than you would expect from Solarserver.)

It is! Their biggest solar farms are also in the Inner Mongolia where the irradiance is twice what you get in Germany. That said the sheer scale is crazy!

slaw 1y ago
Inner Mongolia is so far from populated areas that China build 2000 km electric power lines, as long as a car drive from Munich to Sicily.
- kragen 1y ago
  The Messina Strait Bridge doesn't actually exist. Perhaps you are driving a hovercraft.
  - slaw 1y ago
    Ferries don't exist.
    - kragen 1y ago
      I imagined them.
  - SapporoChris 1y ago
    https://maps.app.goo.gl/wnyt5nPeiETVsEpP9 https://maps.app.goo.gl/wnyt5nPeiETVsEpP9

kragen 1y ago

Yes, but until recently, Germany produced more electricity than China did.

ffsm8 1y ago
You're not getting his point. Germany has a space problem. There aren't large swaths of land available to put solar panels on. Added to that you have to realize just how far north Germany is, and consequently how... Bad solar is because of that. Seriously, dropping down the same amount of panels gets you significantly less electricity in Germany then where China is building them, much closer to the equator. Overall, Germany is in a shit place for renewable energy
- slow_typist 1y ago
  Pretty bad place for fossil fuel extraction, too.
- kragen 1y ago
  For many years I have been writing about how bad Germany is for solar panels because of, mostly, how far north it is. Specifically, the capacity factor for utility-scale solar in Germany has historically been about 10%, which is mostly because of the unfavorable latitude and cloudiness. You can see this quantified at https://solargis.com/resources/free-maps-and-gis-data?locality=germany https://solargis.com/resources/free-maps-and-gis-data?locali.... The capacity factor for utility-scale solar in China has actually also historically been about 10%, and I have no idea why that is. You are certainly correct that it ought to be much better, because China gets so much more sun. You can see that quantified at https://solargis.com/resources/free-maps-and-gis-data?locality=china https://solargis.com/resources/free-maps-and-gis-data?locali.... However, Germany does not have a space problem. Germany is 357'114km² with "photovoltaic electricity potential" of about 3.0kWh/kWp/day according to Solargis (see above link), which would be a capacity factor of 12.5%. I'm not quite sure how they calculate that, but multiplying by the country's area, the solar constant of 1000W/m², and a fudge factor of 0.8, it works out to something on the order of 30–40 terawatts, electric. That's roughly 50% to 100% more than the entire world's marketed energy consumption, which is about 18 terawatts, about a third of it electric. Germany produced 488.5 TWh in 02024 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Germany) which is 55.73GW. Therefore, roughly 0.2% of Germany's land area would suffice to produce all of its current electrical consumption with solar energy, about 700km². This would also require something like 450 gigawatts (peak) of solar panels, which would cost about €45 billion at today's prices, roughly 4 days of Germany's GDP. It is absolutely true that, if you put those same solar panels in the Mojave Desert, mounted with single-axis trackers, they would produce two or three times as much power. (California's average utility-scale solar capacity factor was over 29% last I checked.) So, yes, solar is much more expensive in Germany. But if you check out https://www.solarserver.de/photovoltaik-preis-pv-modul-preisindex/ https://www.solarserver.de/photovoltaik-preis-pv-modul-preis... you will see that, in March 02023, solar modules cost three times as much as they do now. So solar generation in California then cost what solar generation in Germany costs now. (Except that, because of Biden's anti-renewable-energy tariffs, actual California prices were and are much higher than you would expect from Solarserver.)