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Apple can’t unilaterally decide to use Google Maps or not. You do not know the conditions Google set. My guess is that Apple was backed into a corner and Google

by arrrg 14y ago

Apple can’t unilaterally decide to use Google Maps or not. You do not know the conditions Google set. My guess is that Apple was backed into a corner and Google wouldn’t give them vector maps or turn-by-turn navigation. Building a good maps service is miles outside of Apple’s core competency, so this is all very sad – but at the same time no surprise at all. (Mind you, all this at best explains the bad maps experience, it does not excuse it.)

checker 14y ago
Why didn't they just buy TomTom with their war chest instead of building in-house? It seems to me like they would be familiar with navigation software. Ultimately I imagine that Apple will get Maps solid eventually, but not delivering a solid product initially will cost them.
- nicholassmith 14y ago
  The issue isn't the Maps application, it's the dataset which in part comes from TomTom. Buying TomTom wouldn't have necessarily improved the data that TomTom would be using, they'd have just ended up with a GPS/Mapping company. Incidentally they did buy a couple of companies related to mapping, so they've got some in-house knowledge of mapping but a poor dataset will always be poor no matter how many smart people are sat looking at it.
  - ZeroGravitas 14y ago
    TomTom has been powering GPSs for years, someone would have noticed if the data was as bad as this before. And even if they hadn't (which they didn't because their data is fine), Apple should have. Whichever way you slice it, the buck stops with Apple, the biggest and richest company in the world and their world renowned eye for detail and software development competency.
    - nicholassmith 14y ago
      Depends entirely on how the data is being used, what set of data they're using and so on. I've found that Maps is fine for driving instructions in my area of North East England, but that Walking directions are occasionally missing or not quite right.
      - checker 14y ago
        "The issue isn't the Maps application, it's the dataset which in part comes from TomTom." ... "Depends entirely on how the data is being used" One statement contradicts my statement, and the other supports it.
        nicholassmith 14y ago
        Possibly could have done with being more clear instead of a quick reply. The Maps application probably does have some flaws, but it seems a lot of the flaws are coming from it's mapping data that's stored. This is why buying TomTom wouldn't improve the situation, as the data set itself is where the issue is. In response to ZeroGravitas' statement that TomTom would have noticed before it does depend entirely on how the data set from TomTom is being used but that doesn't necessarily mean that the application is flawed, it could indicate that the data points they've been supplied with aren't consistent for what the application is trying to do. Apple has made a mistake though, ZeroGravitas is bang on about the buck stopping there. In the UK however we're seeing all sorts of mapping data glitches causing the issues, rather than anything on an application specific level. But it's still Apple's fault, but I stand by the point of them buying TomTom not helping the bail out the boat they're in.
        checker 14y ago
        I see, thanks for the clarification. I live in the US, and TomTom is generally pretty reliable here as far as the software and data goes.
- masklinn 14y ago
  > Why didn't they just buy TomTom with their war chest instead of building in-house? They're using Tomtom's dataset, it's not like buying the company would improve the quality of the dataset.
  - checker 14y ago
    Tomtom might just be spouting BS (and I doubt it because they've made GPS's for years), but from the article: "User experience fully depends on the choices these manufacturers make." "We are confident about our map quality, as selling 65 million portable navigation devices across the world and more than 1.4m TomTom apps for iPhone in the past two years reaffirms this quality."
Daishiman 14y ago
With the cash they have at hand I'm surprised they simply didn't buy out an existing maps provider.
- masklinn 14y ago
  They've bought at least 2 map-related companies so far (Poly9 and C3) and are using existing datasets (e.g. tomtom's), but Apple doesn't actually move really fast: just look at PA Semi, we're only finally seeing their work with the A6 (allegedly, to be confirmed). Apple bought P.A. 4 years ago...
  - objclxt 14y ago
    I'm not sure that's a great comparison: four years would seem about right, given PA Semi's main expertise at the time of acquisition was Power rather than ARM. Designing a custom ARM core isn't rocket science, but it's pretty close: plus you've then got to actually get the things fabricated at sufficient yield. I am not sure they could have done things much quicker to be honest.
    - masklinn 14y ago
      If you think mapping and cartography are much easier, you've never given that a shot, it's a can of worms.
    - samlittlewood 14y ago
      If i recall correctly, PA Semi's founder(s?) were from the DEC StrongARM team - so there might have been some prior experience.
- w0utert 14y ago
  > With the cash they have at hand I'm surprised they simply didn't buy out an existing maps provider. That's more or less what they did, the maps are coming from TomTom and Waze. The main issue with the iOS 6 maps application appears not to be with the map data itself, but with the (lack of) points-of-interest and their accuracy, which cripples the search functions. A company like TomTom is mainly concerned with maps and points-of-interest for car navigation, much less with finding individual shops, landmarks or other places you find by other means than street address. Probably you won't have any problems finding gas stations, motels or roadside restaurants and such with iOS 6 maps, but good luck finding all widget shops in New York. TomTom's navigation units do have some points-of-interest outside of what you'd expect from a satnav, but it's a far, far cry from the amount of data Google has. As it stands, I don't think there is any single party besides Google that has so much diverse geographically indexed data. There simply is no company that Apple could have bought to fill that gap. It will probably take them years to gather even half of the data Google Maps already provides.
ryeguy_24 14y ago
This is a valid argument and one that I originally did not see. It very well could be the same case as the YouTube app (Core App vs Third-Party App) where Google might have wanted more flexibility in updating its apps (not tied to the OS).
- ajanuary 14y ago
  Or the flexibility to do them at all. The old Maps and YouTube apps were written and maintained by Apple.
jtreminio 14y ago
I don't think it's sad at all. Would you give your main competitor all the features your native users use, after that competitor has been cut-throat with your ecosystem?
brudgers 14y ago
It's a product of Apple's inability to form stable B2B relationships - "adult relationships" if one enjoys snarky analogies. Contrast this to the way in which Microsoft has recently addressed Google's strength in Maps. They found someone with mutual interests. http://searchengineland.com/microsoft-and-nokia-present-unified-maps-on-pc-mobile-113133 http://searchengineland.com/microsoft-and-nokia-present-unif... Google and Apple have been unfriending each other since Schmidt resigned from Apple's board three years ago. A jilted Apple is again "looking and feeling" for reasons to drag the ex who cheated on them into court. Heck, in Samsung, they are even treating one of their current "friends with benefits" like an ex. TomTom's response, "We are a paid escort service, you can find us in the phonebook."
- ryanhuff 14y ago
  Regardless of the drama involved, the fact is that Google is competing against Apple, and maps are a significant enabler of that competition. Apple has to cut off Google in this case.
  - brudgers 14y ago
    Imagine TomTom when they got a call from Apple. It's not as if TomTom aren't facing competition from Google, only more so because the dedicated GPS hardware they sell is becoming increasingly marginalized by smartphones. They've got to have been thinking, "This could big," while imagining the benefits from being a partner in the data development for Apple's map app. But Apple didn't want a relationship, just a one time cash transaction so that Apple can encroach on TomTom's business. Part of me suspects that Apple got the worst possible data set TomTom could deliver and still plausibly argue they met the requirements of their agreement with Apple. There was no strategic advantage in doing otherwise. Apple needs to move on. It was Google that did the cutting off.
    - jetti 14y ago
      "But Apple didn't want a relationship, just a one time cash transaction so that Apple can encroach on TomTom's business. Part of me suspects that Apple got the worst possible data set TomTom could deliver and still plausibly argue they met the requirements of their agreement with Apple. There was no strategic advantage in doing otherwise." I disagree. Even if they gave them a high quality data set, that set is going to be obsolete within a year (let's say). Now Apple can either choose to keep obsolete data (which will definitely impact customers) or buy updated data from TomTom.
dundun 14y ago
Apple's decision to go with an in-house map app has been a long time coming. They've been acquiring mapping companies for the last few years and have been (attempting) to build that core competency so that these kind of issues were minimal when they made the switch. As far as Google giving them turn-by-turn capabilities-- that's really the special sauce that sets Android apart. It was probably available, but at a price that Apple didn't want to pay. Plus, Apple probably didn't like that they weren't getting their 30% on the revenue from local search in the Google Maps app. So, in the long run this will work out for Apple. Sure, the users will be affected in the short term and it may never actually be as good as Google Maps.... but hey look, shiny pictures of 3D buildings
- wonderyak 14y ago
  You know, reduced accuracy and functionaliy like that might be acceptable for an email client or a web browser (no copy and paste, other quality of life features) but not a mapping application. Before Google Maps, digital maps were HORRIBLE. Even the first iterations of Google Maps were better than just about everything, save for a Thomas Guide. Everyone has gotten used to putting data into a map application and being returned a reasonalbly correct set of instructions or representation of data. This is inexcusable today. As far as horrible changes you can make to a smartphone, this ranks way up there (short of having a dialer that doesn't work).

by arrrg 14y ago

checker 14y ago

Why didn't they just buy TomTom with their war chest instead of building in-house? It seems to me like they would be familiar with navigation software. Ultimately I imagine that Apple will get Maps solid eventually, but not delivering a solid product initially will cost them.

nicholassmith 14y ago
The issue isn't the Maps application, it's the dataset which in part comes from TomTom. Buying TomTom wouldn't have necessarily improved the data that TomTom would be using, they'd have just ended up with a GPS/Mapping company. Incidentally they did buy a couple of companies related to mapping, so they've got some in-house knowledge of mapping but a poor dataset will always be poor no matter how many smart people are sat looking at it.
- ZeroGravitas 14y ago
  TomTom has been powering GPSs for years, someone would have noticed if the data was as bad as this before. And even if they hadn't (which they didn't because their data is fine), Apple should have. Whichever way you slice it, the buck stops with Apple, the biggest and richest company in the world and their world renowned eye for detail and software development competency.
  - nicholassmith 14y ago
    Depends entirely on how the data is being used, what set of data they're using and so on. I've found that Maps is fine for driving instructions in my area of North East England, but that Walking directions are occasionally missing or not quite right.
    - checker 14y ago
      "The issue isn't the Maps application, it's the dataset which in part comes from TomTom." ... "Depends entirely on how the data is being used" One statement contradicts my statement, and the other supports it.
      - nicholassmith 14y ago
        Possibly could have done with being more clear instead of a quick reply. The Maps application probably does have some flaws, but it seems a lot of the flaws are coming from it's mapping data that's stored. This is why buying TomTom wouldn't improve the situation, as the data set itself is where the issue is. In response to ZeroGravitas' statement that TomTom would have noticed before it does depend entirely on how the data set from TomTom is being used but that doesn't necessarily mean that the application is flawed, it could indicate that the data points they've been supplied with aren't consistent for what the application is trying to do. Apple has made a mistake though, ZeroGravitas is bang on about the buck stopping there. In the UK however we're seeing all sorts of mapping data glitches causing the issues, rather than anything on an application specific level. But it's still Apple's fault, but I stand by the point of them buying TomTom not helping the bail out the boat they're in.
        checker 14y ago
        I see, thanks for the clarification. I live in the US, and TomTom is generally pretty reliable here as far as the software and data goes.
masklinn 14y ago
> Why didn't they just buy TomTom with their war chest instead of building in-house? They're using Tomtom's dataset, it's not like buying the company would improve the quality of the dataset.
- checker 14y ago
  Tomtom might just be spouting BS (and I doubt it because they've made GPS's for years), but from the article: "User experience fully depends on the choices these manufacturers make." "We are confident about our map quality, as selling 65 million portable navigation devices across the world and more than 1.4m TomTom apps for iPhone in the past two years reaffirms this quality."

Daishiman 14y ago

With the cash they have at hand I'm surprised they simply didn't buy out an existing maps provider.

masklinn 14y ago
They've bought at least 2 map-related companies so far (Poly9 and C3) and are using existing datasets (e.g. tomtom's), but Apple doesn't actually move really fast: just look at PA Semi, we're only finally seeing their work with the A6 (allegedly, to be confirmed). Apple bought P.A. 4 years ago...
- objclxt 14y ago
  I'm not sure that's a great comparison: four years would seem about right, given PA Semi's main expertise at the time of acquisition was Power rather than ARM. Designing a custom ARM core isn't rocket science, but it's pretty close: plus you've then got to actually get the things fabricated at sufficient yield. I am not sure they could have done things much quicker to be honest.
  - masklinn 14y ago
    If you think mapping and cartography are much easier, you've never given that a shot, it's a can of worms.
  - samlittlewood 14y ago
    If i recall correctly, PA Semi's founder(s?) were from the DEC StrongARM team - so there might have been some prior experience.
w0utert 14y ago
> With the cash they have at hand I'm surprised they simply didn't buy out an existing maps provider. That's more or less what they did, the maps are coming from TomTom and Waze. The main issue with the iOS 6 maps application appears not to be with the map data itself, but with the (lack of) points-of-interest and their accuracy, which cripples the search functions. A company like TomTom is mainly concerned with maps and points-of-interest for car navigation, much less with finding individual shops, landmarks or other places you find by other means than street address. Probably you won't have any problems finding gas stations, motels or roadside restaurants and such with iOS 6 maps, but good luck finding all widget shops in New York. TomTom's navigation units do have some points-of-interest outside of what you'd expect from a satnav, but it's a far, far cry from the amount of data Google has. As it stands, I don't think there is any single party besides Google that has so much diverse geographically indexed data. There simply is no company that Apple could have bought to fill that gap. It will probably take them years to gather even half of the data Google Maps already provides.

ryeguy_24 14y ago

This is a valid argument and one that I originally did not see. It very well could be the same case as the YouTube app (Core App vs Third-Party App) where Google might have wanted more flexibility in updating its apps (not tied to the OS).

ajanuary 14y ago
Or the flexibility to do them at all. The old Maps and YouTube apps were written and maintained by Apple.

jtreminio 14y ago

I don't think it's sad at all. Would you give your main competitor all the features your native users use, after that competitor has been cut-throat with your ecosystem?

brudgers 14y ago

It's a product of Apple's inability to form stable B2B relationships - "adult relationships" if one enjoys snarky analogies. Contrast this to the way in which Microsoft has recently addressed Google's strength in Maps. They found someone with mutual interests. http://searchengineland.com/microsoft-and-nokia-present-unified-maps-on-pc-mobile-113133 http://searchengineland.com/microsoft-and-nokia-present-unif... Google and Apple have been unfriending each other since Schmidt resigned from Apple's board three years ago. A jilted Apple is again "looking and feeling" for reasons to drag the ex who cheated on them into court. Heck, in Samsung, they are even treating one of their current "friends with benefits" like an ex. TomTom's response, "We are a paid escort service, you can find us in the phonebook."

ryanhuff 14y ago
Regardless of the drama involved, the fact is that Google is competing against Apple, and maps are a significant enabler of that competition. Apple has to cut off Google in this case.
- brudgers 14y ago
  Imagine TomTom when they got a call from Apple. It's not as if TomTom aren't facing competition from Google, only more so because the dedicated GPS hardware they sell is becoming increasingly marginalized by smartphones. They've got to have been thinking, "This could big," while imagining the benefits from being a partner in the data development for Apple's map app. But Apple didn't want a relationship, just a one time cash transaction so that Apple can encroach on TomTom's business. Part of me suspects that Apple got the worst possible data set TomTom could deliver and still plausibly argue they met the requirements of their agreement with Apple. There was no strategic advantage in doing otherwise. Apple needs to move on. It was Google that did the cutting off.
  - jetti 14y ago
    "But Apple didn't want a relationship, just a one time cash transaction so that Apple can encroach on TomTom's business. Part of me suspects that Apple got the worst possible data set TomTom could deliver and still plausibly argue they met the requirements of their agreement with Apple. There was no strategic advantage in doing otherwise." I disagree. Even if they gave them a high quality data set, that set is going to be obsolete within a year (let's say). Now Apple can either choose to keep obsolete data (which will definitely impact customers) or buy updated data from TomTom.

dundun 14y ago

Apple's decision to go with an in-house map app has been a long time coming. They've been acquiring mapping companies for the last few years and have been (attempting) to build that core competency so that these kind of issues were minimal when they made the switch. As far as Google giving them turn-by-turn capabilities-- that's really the special sauce that sets Android apart. It was probably available, but at a price that Apple didn't want to pay. Plus, Apple probably didn't like that they weren't getting their 30% on the revenue from local search in the Google Maps app. So, in the long run this will work out for Apple. Sure, the users will be affected in the short term and it may never actually be as good as Google Maps.... but hey look, shiny pictures of 3D buildings

wonderyak 14y ago
You know, reduced accuracy and functionaliy like that might be acceptable for an email client or a web browser (no copy and paste, other quality of life features) but not a mapping application. Before Google Maps, digital maps were HORRIBLE. Even the first iterations of Google Maps were better than just about everything, save for a Thomas Guide. Everyone has gotten used to putting data into a map application and being returned a reasonalbly correct set of instructions or representation of data. This is inexcusable today. As far as horrible changes you can make to a smartphone, this ranks way up there (short of having a dialer that doesn't work).