16 ms·

Say Goodbye

151 points by mooreds 1y ago

coolThingsFirst 1y ago
Just make it brief, don't say something like: And as we part ways on this sorrowful day may Odin and Thor be with you.
- theodric 1y ago
  *and I'll see you in Valhalla
  - weregiraffe 1y ago
    You will ride eternal, shiny and chrome
mustaphah 1y ago
I was affected some time ago, and I can't emphasize enough how important it is to reach out to the people you were in touch with, just for a simple "sorry to hear the news." I really appreciated the folks who did reach out - some of whom I honestly didn't expect to. But I was deeply disappointed that others I've worked more closely with didn't bother. I was already in shock, and that just made things worse. Hard to imagine; you don't really get it until it happens to you - hopefully never.
- mooreds 1y ago
  > Hard to imagine; you don't really get it until it happens to you - hopefully never. 100% this. It rocked my world when it happened to me. I took a day to recover then hopped back in the job market. But it took a year for the anger to fade. I probably identified too closely with my job at the time. I've tried to dial that back.
brudgers 1y ago
But the main reason to do this is to be a good human being. And the kind of person people want to work with.
jofer 1y ago
I'm trying to count the rounds of major layoffs in my career (e.g. 10% or more of the company let go at once). I _think_ it's 5, but it might be a bit more. I've been lucky each time, but that also means I wasn't one of the ones taking risks. Layoffs cut from both sides of the performance curve and leave the middle, in my experience. I wish I'd done this more. In some cases there was no way to. For example, we once woke up to find that the European half of our team had been laid off as part of huge cuts that weren't announced and even our manager had no idea were coming. There's no good way to do layoffs, but I think that "sudden shock" approach is worst of all, personally. You don't get to say goodbye in any way and people don't get to plan for contingencies at all. (The other extreme of knowing it's coming for a year and applying for your own job and then having 2 months to sit around after you didn't get it also sucks, and I've done that as well. You can at least make plans in that case, though.) On the other hand, in a _lot_ of other cases, you do have a chance to say goodbye. Take it. This is really excellent advice. It's worth saying something, at very least to the people you really did enjoy working with. There's a decent chance you work with some of those folks in the future, and even if you don't, it really does mean something to be a kind human.
- rocketpastsix 1y ago
  Theres no good way to do a layoff, but there are tons of bad ways to do them and it seems like we keep finding new ways to make it worse.
- cheschire 1y ago
  The "sudden shock" approach is a risk mitigation. You have to ask yourself though, what risk were they mitigating? There's no good answer to that question I can come up with that should make you want to stay at that company.
  - redhed 1y ago
    There's a lot of companies with IP that can be extracted or systems that can be sabotaged by a bitter employee. There's also the extreme cases of someone who knows they are being fired who can do a shooting/arson/some other extreme scenario. I'm not saying I agree with the shock approach but there are definitely some generic risks that I don't think paint a bad picture of the company by their existence.
paulglx 1y ago
> Don’t trash your employer, nor respond if they do. If they start that, say “I’m sorry, I can imagine why you’d feel that way, but I can’t continue this conversation.” This is so bizarre. I would show a huge lack of empathy as well.
- frotaur 1y ago
  Really feels like the response LLMs give.
  - netule 1y ago
    > I can imagine why you’d feel that way, but I can’t continue this conversation. This is ChatGPT, 100%.
    - hylaride 1y ago
      Yeah, an empathetic person would understand how and why the person is feeling the way they are and acknowledge it. There can be of course legal repercussions to going off on your employer, but even a "yeah, that's now how I would have done it myself", etc can show that you actually do care. If somebody you know was dumped recently and is saying negative things about their ex, it's perfectly fine to "agree" or commiserate while they process and go through the stages of grief (ignoring any issues like their ex being family, etc). The author reads to me like one of those perennial "think positive thoughts only" people that think that'll get them success.
    - emigre 1y ago
      You're absolutely right!
- shortrounddev2 1y ago
  Yeah why even send them a message if you're not interested in actually talking? What do they get out of it? What do you get out of it?
  - 1y ago
oldpersonintx2 1y ago
[dead]
theodric 1y ago
So it's "be a good person," but with then absolutely no follow-through or obligation attached: don't offer help, respond like an LLM when someone says something negative about the company that just sacked them, and don't even feel compelled to continue the conversation that you started if the person replies. Sounds to me like these goodbyes are more for the personal feelings of moral rectitude of the person making them, rather than anything related to the person who is departing. So it's really how to pretend to be a good person well enough to fool someone looking casually, a.k.a. instructions for being a passing sociopath.
- tgv 1y ago
  Cultural issue, perhaps? Americans can say "we must have diner sometimes," while meaning "let's not meet again."
  - theodric 1y ago
    Well, I'm American, although I've been in W. Europe longer than I lived in the USA at this point. Regardless, I don't see the value in lying about your intentions while framing it as performing a social good. Deceive someone into thinking you might be a friend, or friendly, but then ghost them if they attempt to engage. For whose benefit? In that case, just leave me alone. I will figure out the next steps on my own without having to take on the burden of trying to decide if the person messaging me is worth caring about.
    - tgv 1y ago
      I don't see it either when taking it literally. So that made me think: perhaps there's some cultural signal I'm not getting. Something that cannot be said out aloud.
- kmoser 1y ago
  Considering many people in general, and tech people in particular, admit to being socially awkward and having difficulty connecting with other humans, why is a guide to suggested socially acceptable behavior a bad thing?
SkittlesNTwix 1y ago
I see a lot of harsh and snarky responses to a well-intentioned post.
- weregiraffe 1y ago
  Do you know what the road to hell is paved with?
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- mooreds 1y ago
  Author here. Thanks for the feedback. I can tell there's a lot of passion around the topic. As well as room for improvement in my message. But if this causes one person to reach out to a laid-off colleague in a way that helps them feel more human, that's worth all the HN snark.
borroka 1y ago
I was laid off, and only a couple of my former colleagues reached out to me. People I had talked to for years and helped, some significantly, didn't even send me a message. Consider that at one point, I had put myself out there to ask for more promotions and higher compensation for my colleagues. I didn't feel particularly offended, but in my next job, I will definitely not help my colleagues as much and will think about myself 99% of the time. It's disappointing to see grown adults who are so fearful, ungrateful, and reveal themselves to be rather miserable people, but that's the way the world works.
- higeorge13 1y ago
  Funny thing is that i had a negative experience helping someone who was laid off. I reached out, offered help, provided excellent reference for them, covid hit and hiring froze for that particular company, followed up a few times, ghosted, never talked again. It's you last phrase, that's the way the world and people works. It's people with their own troubles, insecurities and character. The most important bit is be yourself. If you are "built" to think and help others, keep doing it. If not, whatever.
Night_Thastus 1y ago
Those goodbyes feel so corporate. After being laid off, the last thing I would want is to hear more corporate speak. It's the sort of thing a manager would send to an employee, not something employees at similar levels would send one another.
- kmoser 1y ago
  You're free to change the wording of the messages, as the author made clear when they wrote "tune that to how you interacted with them."
  - the_duke 1y ago
    All the suggestions feel similarly corporate. The "parted ways" phrasing would probably annoy me quite significantly. We didn't "part ways", they fired me.
qwertytyyuu 1y ago
In this hypothetical situation I was just about to commit at least half the sins mentioned at the end. I think I might not be the best person to be saying goodbye at work.
swiftcoder 1y ago
I've never seen layoffs where the ones who survived the layoff weren't equally willing to slag-off the corporation. Rather than sending "hallmark™ layoff greetings", maybe make friends with whomever of your coworkers is interested, and if/when they get laid off, try buying them a beer and actually listening to their grievances...
- mooreds 1y ago
  Author here. I think buying someone a coffee or beer in person is great if you are in the same location. I have done that for more than one colleague and asked them for their thoughts. You probably can't do that for everyone, but it's a good idea for the folks you know well who are in your area. There's so much nuance and emotion around grievances that I'd want to have the conversation in person.
  - whaleofatw2022 1y ago
    Once upon a time I took an afternoon off to give a coworker a ride home when they got laid off mid day; their ride was a coworker who was required to finish his shift due to circumstances. It was honestly rough because it was immediately raw for them however it was a good thing. Fwiw my manager was the one who had to do the layoff and they did not have any issue with me suddenly taking the afternoon off to do the deed. That shop really tried to be as good as they could about it.
deadbabe 1y ago
Please do not end your messages with an exclamation point. “I wish you the best!” is fine if they are moving on to some better job. “I wish you the best.” is more appropriate for the gravity of the situation if they just got fired and thrown into the shittiest job market in recent history.
iamleppert 1y ago
This post feels like it was lifted straight from a corporate HR Layoffs FAQ section. Most people don't want to hear from old co-workers, from a job they just got laid off from, especially those that are there to offer fake, self-serving sentiment with a bunch of rules attached. Unless you already have a relationship with the person, you would probably have already talked anyway and it would be natural without all these weird rules of engagement. People who do this are fake and its amazing to me they think this kind of thing isn't perceived as anything other than fake. There is a time and place for everything, networking with recently laid off co-workers is not one of them.
- mooreds 1y ago
  Author here. Appreciate the feedback. I will ask: have you ever been laid off? I have, and I'll tell you, being seen and thanked, even in a perfunctory manner, helped me be less hurt and angry. N of 1 and all that, but that was my experience. The rules of engagement I outline are, as I mentioned elsewhere, to take some of the stress off of folks who might otherwise not undertake this simple, humane gesture.
6510 1y ago
Let me write up the professional version the way only I can. Start with the formula described in the article but call rather than send an email. Call them again 12 or 24 months later. The script should be in your own words: Some people you need to talk to or see every day, some every week, some every month and some people every few years. Don't worry about it, I'm not going to stalk you. I will call you again in two or three years. Then talk like coworkers about new jobs, earnings, the good the bad and the ugly, learn they got married/divorced, had kids, left the country for a while. etc etc Keep the call under 4 minutes. Some people don't know how to terminate a phone call. After each phone call send them an email summarizing the things you've talked about. Include the previous email. You will find that, provided there is no obligation to stay in touch, people don't mind telling what they did over the last two years. Even if they don't like you. The fact that you've asked puts you well ahead of most people they know. The 3rd call after 3-6 years is simply hilarious. They know the drill, the conversation can be as short as two minutes. Thanks for your time, we should do this again in two years! You methodically hammer out the email again and go on with life.
byyoung3 1y ago
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/BbffmZML5yQ https://www.youtube.com/shorts/BbffmZML5yQ
tock 1y ago
Well intentioned post. Though I never understood the "don't trash your employer" advice people often give. It's often the more empathetic thing to do in such situations.
- trollbridge 1y ago
  One nice thing after a former employer goes bankrupt/execs get indicted for securities fraud is you are then free to trash your former employer (and I’d view with great suspicion anyone who didn’t).
- ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
  In some cases (many, actually), you have to sign a contract to get your severance, and there's often a "non-disparagement" clause in there. I also feel that it's just good common sense, too. Even if we are incandescent with rage, it's usually considered "unprofessional" to descend into name-calling. If others see us as "unprofessional," that can have negative impacts on our careers. It's usually just safer to be noncommittal. Doesn't cost anything, and likely saves a lot of heartache. I'm fairly saddened at the reactions to this post. It did not prescribe anything that would really cause any harm, and is a basic "everyone knows this" aspect of relationship-building; done so, for centuries.
josefritzishere 1y ago
"Three things in human life are important: the first is to be kind; the second is to be kind; and the third is to be kind." - Henry James.
elijaht 1y ago
I was shocked at how much even perfunctory messages from coworkers meant when I got laid off. And the folks that offered tangible help have stayed in my mind since. It was the most challenging time in my life and even a simple message saying they would miss me or something like that helped so much. Before I got laid off I was always hesitant to reach out to other folks who were laid off, now I try to make a point of it, even if it’s to apologize
tomovo 1y ago
Make sure to keep that <firstname> in the message. This will emphasize how much good human being you are.
stronglikedan 1y ago
lol, no. If I do that, they may reach out to me outside of work, and why would anyone want that headache? I have plenty of friends already, thanks. If I have the opportunity to say goodbye before they leave, then of course I will, but I'm not getting personal with coworkers.
stego-tech 1y ago
When I got the axe at OldCo earlier this year, what stood out to me - and what made it so much more bearable to endure - was how many of my colleagues did this for me. How many of them still reach out to me, half a year on, to shoot the breeze, discuss wins, share hobbies. Maybe it’s because I grew to be a better person from their feedback and mentoring, or maybe it’s just a shifting of times and attitudes. Heck, maybe I just got lucky that I worked with amazing people like them. I just wish I’d had that support in prior layoff cycles as well.
jampa 1y ago
I'm sure the OP means well, but I think this approach is misguided. It comes across as self-centered rather than supportive. You might get a polite "thanks" in response, but I doubt it will be genuinely appreciated. If you care about the person and want to talk with them, reach out and be genuine. If not, don't bother them with LLM corporate-speak masquerading as support. Let's be honest: they didn't "part ways" with the company--they were fired. Right now, they're worried about paying their bills, not about making their former coworkers feel better. If you really want to help, reach out to your network and see if anyone is hiring. I've successfully connected many laid-off former coworkers with new opportunities. I've even approached recruiters that I ignored saying, "I'm not available, but this person is looking, and they're excellent."
- sadcodemonkey 1y ago
  OP's blog post also rang false to me. It feels like it was written by someone who works in HR trying to promote a culture that inhibits real interactions, under the guise of being "a good human being." Being a good human involves honesty and naming things that are extremely difficult to name when you're both employed at the same place. I've had so many honest and illuminating conversations with coworkers after one or both of us left a company or organization, conversations that deepened into real friendships instead of just being colleagues.
  - pw6hv 1y ago
    Especially when they say: > Don’t feel like you have continue the conversation if they respond. You can if you want, but don’t feel obligated. Then why did you write?! What kind of "good human being" are you?
    - ChuckMcM 1y ago
      This kind of nails it. Absolutely keep in touch with people because connection is essential to the human existence. Don't "pretend" to offer connection if you aren't willing to nourish it. The pretense is just mean and does more harm than good.
givemeethekeys 1y ago
Yeah, you only get to say goodbye if they don't walk you out and lock you out immediately. Otherwise, you get to send LinkedIn messages to people who you're maybe connected to.
Bjartr 1y ago
It's interesting how polarized the response to this idea is. On the one hand, there are responses like that describe this as bizarre and tone-deaf, accuse it of LLM levels of fake empathy, or say how if they were laid off they would absolutely despise getting such a message. On the other hand, there are responses from people who actually received such messages when they were laid off saying how valuable and meaningful even a simple "sorry to hear the news" message was to them. Though, at least as I post this, there aren't any responses describing being laid off and disliking such messages in practice, it's all hypothetical hate. Not entirely sure how to interpret that. Maybe they'll appear as more comments get posted. There's a lot of layers here and many reasons why such strongly opposed sentiments might arise. It would be fascinating to get a better understanding of all this. Is it a personality thing? Is it a past experience thing? Is it from how a person views their relationship to work and their employer? How do these opinions distribute across the neurotypical/neurodivergent axis? One detail that specifically interests me is this idea that wanting to offer condolences, but not automatically obligate oneself to anything beyond that seems to draw ire. Those expressing this opinion seem to be saying there is a clear, stark line for what constitutes "enough" that this approach clearly falls short of. But where that line is is going to be pretty strongly influenced by social convention, which not all people are not tuned into to the same degree, for a variety of reasons.
- asacrowflies 1y ago
  Seems pretty self evident that many people would just smile and nod and mask thru these interactions in the past ..And that people are tired of this same saccharine pr corpo babble invading every aspect and niche of their lives. And this is the straw that breaks the back. Say what you mean. Mean what you say. Otherwise get sorted with the other parasites.
  - Bjartr 1y ago
    > Say what you mean. Mean what you say. It is far from that simple. It takes understanding how people will read between the lines of what you say, seeking unsaid meaning where there was none. I fight this constantly in my life. It would be so, so much easier and simpler for me if I could just say what I mean and have others understand that.
some_guy_nobel 1y ago
Nice post up until the section on "don'ts", at which point it loses the plot and almost becomes a performative caricature of itself: > Don’t feel like you have to continue the conversation if they respond. You can if you want, but don’t feel obligated. So why reach out at all? Solely for the (mentioned) networking off-chance they remember that you messaged them in the future? Seems pretty self-serving > Don’t trash your employer, nor respond if they do. If they start that, say “I’m sorry, I can imagine why you’d feel that way, but I can’t continue this conversation.” Imagine their perspective here (that is, use empathy) if you just cut off the conversation at the mention of the actor responsible for the reason you're messaging them at all. They would just feel even more isolated at this, and wonder why you reached out in the first place. So bizarre. > Finally, don’t do this if you are the manager who laid them off. Well, for a layoffs, not a pip, definitely do reach out to them as a manager. I can't think of anyone they'd like to hear from more than their manager to explain the situation and offer some sort of solace. > Don’t say things that might cause you trouble like “wish we could have kept you” or “you were such a great performer, I don’t know why they laid you off”. You don’t know the full details and you don’t want to expose yourself or your company to any legal issues. That's right - don't show any actual empathy, lest you put the company in any negative light!! NGL, this honestly reads like a satirical take on a sociopath submitting an assignment on how to show empathy. (Obviously OP is not a sociopath, I'm just saying if The Onion released this as written by one, I'd get a good chuckle).
raspasov 1y ago
>> Don’t say things that might cause you trouble like “wish we could have kept you” If I actually think that, I wouldn't shy away from saying it.
ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
> But the main reason to do this is to be a good human being. That's the main reason that I do that kind of thing. It has sometimes resulted in career/monetary gains, but usually, it's just me, feeling decent about something. I really appreciate the post. Thanks for sharing it. You seem like a decent human being.
- asacrowflies 1y ago
  Are you reading all th other comments? Is this some irony I'm unaware of....lol
  - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
    Yeah. I find it disappointing. It's not LinkedIn "broetry." It's fairly classic advice, like I've been reading for 40 years. Moore is a decent chap. We don't really have much to do with each other, because we fly in different orbits, but I've enjoyed his contributions, and find his approach fairly mature and sane, compared to a lot. I feel as if a lot of people work hard to make this a darker place, and appreciate it, when folks try to encourage a more positive zeitgeist.
    - asacrowflies 1y ago
      I find the toxic positivity and parasitic pr speak to be far worse and negative for the zeitgeist. Remind me of most American "Christians" especially of the evangelical type who go on and on about " love* but are just bully's wearing a mask of toxic positivity and false empathy
      - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
        I guess that it makes sense to publicly attack everyone that expresses positive stuff -especially senior hiring managers-; fake or not. It just doesn't make sense to me, though. I'm dumb, that way. Have a great day!
SoftTalker 1y ago
I'd pick a nit on the phrase "sorry to hear you and <company> parted ways" To me, "parted ways" sounds like a mutually-agreed separation. I'm not sure what's better, maybe "sorry to hear we won't be working together anymore" but really, unless they were a pretty close friend I probably would not say anything. It just comes across as "sucks for you" while not-so-subtly drawing attention to the fact that I still have a job.
- swiftcoder 1y ago
  Yeah, I'd be much more onboard with a more positive "hey, I hope we get the chance to work together again" for someone I've genuinely enjoyed working with.
rodolphoarruda 1y ago
The last time I was let go I was given two days to phase my projects out to a colleague. But I also took the time to email/call all the customers I had contact with and asked them to send me an email to my personal account so that we could keep in touch, especially for future referrals. I've got 63 messages. It was such a relief and a joy to get all those messages coming in bitter days like the ones following a lay off.
kwar13 1y ago
> Don’t feel like you have continue the conversation if they respond. You can if you want, but don’t feel obligated. > Don’t state you are going to keep in touch, unless you plan to. Either this was written by someone who works in HR, or is some new AI slop. Why would you reach out with a note then...? Just don't in the first place if those are the suggestions.
strict9 1y ago
I agree with this message and happy to see it. But I think the more important point is the increasing number of layoffs linked in the article [1]. These layoffs are mostly ignored here and everywhere else. Jobs are getting offshored and outsourced in large quantities and the tech community is on the whole ambivalent about it. Unless you were directly impacted. The path for software developers looks bleak. While people are wringing their hands over AI while something else entirely is destroying job prospects for young grads. [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/layoffs-2025-highest-level-since-2020-labor-market-jobs-report/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/layoffs-2025-highest-level-sinc...
f4c39012 1y ago
LinkedIn allows you to write a recomendation, after submission it goes to the other person to approve. If you want to risk a little of your reputation to support another (and your employer doesn't prevent you from doing this) then its an easy way to help someone out
southernplaces7 1y ago
What a blandly stupid post. Imagine the person you write to, who got fired and is now worrying about their job prospects, kid's school, house payments etc, and other practical things, getting some saccharine note of half-baked "concern" in which you start with describing their having their ass having been canned as "parting ways". This kind of neutered corporate-speak has invasively permeated every level of modern business, government and organization discourse, it's downright revolting to see it also drain down into informal personal communication from one human being to another.
48terry 1y ago
> There may be benefits down the road, such as them remembering you kindly and helping you out in the future. This part sticks out to me because, in this article presumably about empathy, we couldn't help ourselves but to bring up "also, there could be incredible value to you, personally, for doing this". We couldn't resist, we couldn't make the article purely about the person who got fired, we gotta bring it back to me for a second. We need to talk about this caring outreach as a transaction. Not only does it read like a vulture's mentality to talk bout how you might gain from another person losing their job, it makes me question the author's future communications. If Moore hypothetically reached out to me with an empathetic hand, and I had seen this part of the article, I'd be stuck on it. Is he reaching to me because he actually cares about me, or is he more interested in the potential value reaching out to me would give? I mean, he wrote it out right here, so it's on his mind as a factor.
LargoLasskhyfv 1y ago
Would seem like toxic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_positivity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_positivity to me, if I'd be the affected.
mesarvagya 1y ago
Reads like a fucking corpspeak [1] [1] https://lurkertech.com/corpspeak/ https://lurkertech.com/corpspeak/
anovikov 1y ago
Aren't job being lost simply because Trump deports workers, and many run away by themselves fearing being deported?
Timwi 1y ago
> “wish we could have kept you” > “you were such a great performer, I don’t know why they laid you off” Can someone explain the legal(?!) problems with these sentences? I'm very confused.
RiverStone 1y ago
Thank you for this post. When I was laid off, a coworker reached out to me via email like how you suggested. He was the only one. That simple email meant a lot to me.

Say Goodbye

151 points by mooreds 1y ago

coolThingsFirst 1y ago

Just make it brief, don't say something like: And as we part ways on this sorrowful day may Odin and Thor be with you.

theodric 1y ago
*and I'll see you in Valhalla
- weregiraffe 1y ago
  You will ride eternal, shiny and chrome

mustaphah 1y ago

I was affected some time ago, and I can't emphasize enough how important it is to reach out to the people you were in touch with, just for a simple "sorry to hear the news." I really appreciated the folks who did reach out - some of whom I honestly didn't expect to. But I was deeply disappointed that others I've worked more closely with didn't bother. I was already in shock, and that just made things worse. Hard to imagine; you don't really get it until it happens to you - hopefully never.

mooreds 1y ago
> Hard to imagine; you don't really get it until it happens to you - hopefully never. 100% this. It rocked my world when it happened to me. I took a day to recover then hopped back in the job market. But it took a year for the anger to fade. I probably identified too closely with my job at the time. I've tried to dial that back.

brudgers 1y ago

But the main reason to do this is to be a good human being. And the kind of person people want to work with.

jofer 1y ago

I'm trying to count the rounds of major layoffs in my career (e.g. 10% or more of the company let go at once). I _think_ it's 5, but it might be a bit more. I've been lucky each time, but that also means I wasn't one of the ones taking risks. Layoffs cut from both sides of the performance curve and leave the middle, in my experience. I wish I'd done this more. In some cases there was no way to. For example, we once woke up to find that the European half of our team had been laid off as part of huge cuts that weren't announced and even our manager had no idea were coming. There's no good way to do layoffs, but I think that "sudden shock" approach is worst of all, personally. You don't get to say goodbye in any way and people don't get to plan for contingencies at all. (The other extreme of knowing it's coming for a year and applying for your own job and then having 2 months to sit around after you didn't get it also sucks, and I've done that as well. You can at least make plans in that case, though.) On the other hand, in a _lot_ of other cases, you do have a chance to say goodbye. Take it. This is really excellent advice. It's worth saying something, at very least to the people you really did enjoy working with. There's a decent chance you work with some of those folks in the future, and even if you don't, it really does mean something to be a kind human.

rocketpastsix 1y ago
Theres no good way to do a layoff, but there are tons of bad ways to do them and it seems like we keep finding new ways to make it worse.
cheschire 1y ago
The "sudden shock" approach is a risk mitigation. You have to ask yourself though, what risk were they mitigating? There's no good answer to that question I can come up with that should make you want to stay at that company.
- redhed 1y ago
  There's a lot of companies with IP that can be extracted or systems that can be sabotaged by a bitter employee. There's also the extreme cases of someone who knows they are being fired who can do a shooting/arson/some other extreme scenario. I'm not saying I agree with the shock approach but there are definitely some generic risks that I don't think paint a bad picture of the company by their existence.

paulglx 1y ago

> Don’t trash your employer, nor respond if they do. If they start that, say “I’m sorry, I can imagine why you’d feel that way, but I can’t continue this conversation.” This is so bizarre. I would show a huge lack of empathy as well.

frotaur 1y ago
Really feels like the response LLMs give.
- netule 1y ago
  > I can imagine why you’d feel that way, but I can’t continue this conversation. This is ChatGPT, 100%.
  - hylaride 1y ago
    Yeah, an empathetic person would understand how and why the person is feeling the way they are and acknowledge it. There can be of course legal repercussions to going off on your employer, but even a "yeah, that's now how I would have done it myself", etc can show that you actually do care. If somebody you know was dumped recently and is saying negative things about their ex, it's perfectly fine to "agree" or commiserate while they process and go through the stages of grief (ignoring any issues like their ex being family, etc). The author reads to me like one of those perennial "think positive thoughts only" people that think that'll get them success.
  - emigre 1y ago
    You're absolutely right!
shortrounddev2 1y ago
Yeah why even send them a message if you're not interested in actually talking? What do they get out of it? What do you get out of it?
- 1y ago

oldpersonintx2 1y ago

[dead]

theodric 1y ago

So it's "be a good person," but with then absolutely no follow-through or obligation attached: don't offer help, respond like an LLM when someone says something negative about the company that just sacked them, and don't even feel compelled to continue the conversation that you started if the person replies. Sounds to me like these goodbyes are more for the personal feelings of moral rectitude of the person making them, rather than anything related to the person who is departing. So it's really how to pretend to be a good person well enough to fool someone looking casually, a.k.a. instructions for being a passing sociopath.

tgv 1y ago
Cultural issue, perhaps? Americans can say "we must have diner sometimes," while meaning "let's not meet again."
- theodric 1y ago
  Well, I'm American, although I've been in W. Europe longer than I lived in the USA at this point. Regardless, I don't see the value in lying about your intentions while framing it as performing a social good. Deceive someone into thinking you might be a friend, or friendly, but then ghost them if they attempt to engage. For whose benefit? In that case, just leave me alone. I will figure out the next steps on my own without having to take on the burden of trying to decide if the person messaging me is worth caring about.
  - tgv 1y ago
    I don't see it either when taking it literally. So that made me think: perhaps there's some cultural signal I'm not getting. Something that cannot be said out aloud.
kmoser 1y ago
Considering many people in general, and tech people in particular, admit to being socially awkward and having difficulty connecting with other humans, why is a guide to suggested socially acceptable behavior a bad thing?

SkittlesNTwix 1y ago

I see a lot of harsh and snarky responses to a well-intentioned post.

weregiraffe 1y ago
Do you know what the road to hell is paved with?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
mooreds 1y ago
Author here. Thanks for the feedback. I can tell there's a lot of passion around the topic. As well as room for improvement in my message. But if this causes one person to reach out to a laid-off colleague in a way that helps them feel more human, that's worth all the HN snark.

borroka 1y ago

I was laid off, and only a couple of my former colleagues reached out to me. People I had talked to for years and helped, some significantly, didn't even send me a message. Consider that at one point, I had put myself out there to ask for more promotions and higher compensation for my colleagues. I didn't feel particularly offended, but in my next job, I will definitely not help my colleagues as much and will think about myself 99% of the time. It's disappointing to see grown adults who are so fearful, ungrateful, and reveal themselves to be rather miserable people, but that's the way the world works.

higeorge13 1y ago
Funny thing is that i had a negative experience helping someone who was laid off. I reached out, offered help, provided excellent reference for them, covid hit and hiring froze for that particular company, followed up a few times, ghosted, never talked again. It's you last phrase, that's the way the world and people works. It's people with their own troubles, insecurities and character. The most important bit is be yourself. If you are "built" to think and help others, keep doing it. If not, whatever.

Night_Thastus 1y ago

Those goodbyes feel so corporate. After being laid off, the last thing I would want is to hear more corporate speak. It's the sort of thing a manager would send to an employee, not something employees at similar levels would send one another.

kmoser 1y ago
You're free to change the wording of the messages, as the author made clear when they wrote "tune that to how you interacted with them."
- the_duke 1y ago
  All the suggestions feel similarly corporate. The "parted ways" phrasing would probably annoy me quite significantly. We didn't "part ways", they fired me.

qwertytyyuu 1y ago

In this hypothetical situation I was just about to commit at least half the sins mentioned at the end. I think I might not be the best person to be saying goodbye at work.

swiftcoder 1y ago

I've never seen layoffs where the ones who survived the layoff weren't equally willing to slag-off the corporation. Rather than sending "hallmark™ layoff greetings", maybe make friends with whomever of your coworkers is interested, and if/when they get laid off, try buying them a beer and actually listening to their grievances...

mooreds 1y ago
Author here. I think buying someone a coffee or beer in person is great if you are in the same location. I have done that for more than one colleague and asked them for their thoughts. You probably can't do that for everyone, but it's a good idea for the folks you know well who are in your area. There's so much nuance and emotion around grievances that I'd want to have the conversation in person.
- whaleofatw2022 1y ago
  Once upon a time I took an afternoon off to give a coworker a ride home when they got laid off mid day; their ride was a coworker who was required to finish his shift due to circumstances. It was honestly rough because it was immediately raw for them however it was a good thing. Fwiw my manager was the one who had to do the layoff and they did not have any issue with me suddenly taking the afternoon off to do the deed. That shop really tried to be as good as they could about it.

deadbabe 1y ago

Please do not end your messages with an exclamation point. “I wish you the best!” is fine if they are moving on to some better job. “I wish you the best.” is more appropriate for the gravity of the situation if they just got fired and thrown into the shittiest job market in recent history.

iamleppert 1y ago

This post feels like it was lifted straight from a corporate HR Layoffs FAQ section. Most people don't want to hear from old co-workers, from a job they just got laid off from, especially those that are there to offer fake, self-serving sentiment with a bunch of rules attached. Unless you already have a relationship with the person, you would probably have already talked anyway and it would be natural without all these weird rules of engagement. People who do this are fake and its amazing to me they think this kind of thing isn't perceived as anything other than fake. There is a time and place for everything, networking with recently laid off co-workers is not one of them.

mooreds 1y ago
Author here. Appreciate the feedback. I will ask: have you ever been laid off? I have, and I'll tell you, being seen and thanked, even in a perfunctory manner, helped me be less hurt and angry. N of 1 and all that, but that was my experience. The rules of engagement I outline are, as I mentioned elsewhere, to take some of the stress off of folks who might otherwise not undertake this simple, humane gesture.

6510 1y ago

Let me write up the professional version the way only I can. Start with the formula described in the article but call rather than send an email. Call them again 12 or 24 months later. The script should be in your own words: Some people you need to talk to or see every day, some every week, some every month and some people every few years. Don't worry about it, I'm not going to stalk you. I will call you again in two or three years. Then talk like coworkers about new jobs, earnings, the good the bad and the ugly, learn they got married/divorced, had kids, left the country for a while. etc etc Keep the call under 4 minutes. Some people don't know how to terminate a phone call. After each phone call send them an email summarizing the things you've talked about. Include the previous email. You will find that, provided there is no obligation to stay in touch, people don't mind telling what they did over the last two years. Even if they don't like you. The fact that you've asked puts you well ahead of most people they know. The 3rd call after 3-6 years is simply hilarious. They know the drill, the conversation can be as short as two minutes. Thanks for your time, we should do this again in two years! You methodically hammer out the email again and go on with life.

byyoung3 1y ago

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/BbffmZML5yQ https://www.youtube.com/shorts/BbffmZML5yQ

tock 1y ago

Well intentioned post. Though I never understood the "don't trash your employer" advice people often give. It's often the more empathetic thing to do in such situations.

trollbridge 1y ago
One nice thing after a former employer goes bankrupt/execs get indicted for securities fraud is you are then free to trash your former employer (and I’d view with great suspicion anyone who didn’t).
ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
In some cases (many, actually), you have to sign a contract to get your severance, and there's often a "non-disparagement" clause in there. I also feel that it's just good common sense, too. Even if we are incandescent with rage, it's usually considered "unprofessional" to descend into name-calling. If others see us as "unprofessional," that can have negative impacts on our careers. It's usually just safer to be noncommittal. Doesn't cost anything, and likely saves a lot of heartache. I'm fairly saddened at the reactions to this post. It did not prescribe anything that would really cause any harm, and is a basic "everyone knows this" aspect of relationship-building; done so, for centuries.

josefritzishere 1y ago

"Three things in human life are important: the first is to be kind; the second is to be kind; and the third is to be kind." - Henry James.

elijaht 1y ago

I was shocked at how much even perfunctory messages from coworkers meant when I got laid off. And the folks that offered tangible help have stayed in my mind since. It was the most challenging time in my life and even a simple message saying they would miss me or something like that helped so much. Before I got laid off I was always hesitant to reach out to other folks who were laid off, now I try to make a point of it, even if it’s to apologize

tomovo 1y ago

Make sure to keep that <firstname> in the message. This will emphasize how much good human being you are.

stronglikedan 1y ago

lol, no. If I do that, they may reach out to me outside of work, and why would anyone want that headache? I have plenty of friends already, thanks. If I have the opportunity to say goodbye before they leave, then of course I will, but I'm not getting personal with coworkers.

stego-tech 1y ago

When I got the axe at OldCo earlier this year, what stood out to me - and what made it so much more bearable to endure - was how many of my colleagues did this for me. How many of them still reach out to me, half a year on, to shoot the breeze, discuss wins, share hobbies. Maybe it’s because I grew to be a better person from their feedback and mentoring, or maybe it’s just a shifting of times and attitudes. Heck, maybe I just got lucky that I worked with amazing people like them. I just wish I’d had that support in prior layoff cycles as well.

jampa 1y ago

I'm sure the OP means well, but I think this approach is misguided. It comes across as self-centered rather than supportive. You might get a polite "thanks" in response, but I doubt it will be genuinely appreciated. If you care about the person and want to talk with them, reach out and be genuine. If not, don't bother them with LLM corporate-speak masquerading as support. Let's be honest: they didn't "part ways" with the company--they were fired. Right now, they're worried about paying their bills, not about making their former coworkers feel better. If you really want to help, reach out to your network and see if anyone is hiring. I've successfully connected many laid-off former coworkers with new opportunities. I've even approached recruiters that I ignored saying, "I'm not available, but this person is looking, and they're excellent."

sadcodemonkey 1y ago
OP's blog post also rang false to me. It feels like it was written by someone who works in HR trying to promote a culture that inhibits real interactions, under the guise of being "a good human being." Being a good human involves honesty and naming things that are extremely difficult to name when you're both employed at the same place. I've had so many honest and illuminating conversations with coworkers after one or both of us left a company or organization, conversations that deepened into real friendships instead of just being colleagues.
- pw6hv 1y ago
  Especially when they say: > Don’t feel like you have continue the conversation if they respond. You can if you want, but don’t feel obligated. Then why did you write?! What kind of "good human being" are you?
  - ChuckMcM 1y ago
    This kind of nails it. Absolutely keep in touch with people because connection is essential to the human existence. Don't "pretend" to offer connection if you aren't willing to nourish it. The pretense is just mean and does more harm than good.

givemeethekeys 1y ago

Yeah, you only get to say goodbye if they don't walk you out and lock you out immediately. Otherwise, you get to send LinkedIn messages to people who you're maybe connected to.

Bjartr 1y ago

It's interesting how polarized the response to this idea is. On the one hand, there are responses like that describe this as bizarre and tone-deaf, accuse it of LLM levels of fake empathy, or say how if they were laid off they would absolutely despise getting such a message. On the other hand, there are responses from people who actually received such messages when they were laid off saying how valuable and meaningful even a simple "sorry to hear the news" message was to them. Though, at least as I post this, there aren't any responses describing being laid off and disliking such messages in practice, it's all hypothetical hate. Not entirely sure how to interpret that. Maybe they'll appear as more comments get posted. There's a lot of layers here and many reasons why such strongly opposed sentiments might arise. It would be fascinating to get a better understanding of all this. Is it a personality thing? Is it a past experience thing? Is it from how a person views their relationship to work and their employer? How do these opinions distribute across the neurotypical/neurodivergent axis? One detail that specifically interests me is this idea that wanting to offer condolences, but not automatically obligate oneself to anything beyond that seems to draw ire. Those expressing this opinion seem to be saying there is a clear, stark line for what constitutes "enough" that this approach clearly falls short of. But where that line is is going to be pretty strongly influenced by social convention, which not all people are not tuned into to the same degree, for a variety of reasons.

asacrowflies 1y ago
Seems pretty self evident that many people would just smile and nod and mask thru these interactions in the past ..And that people are tired of this same saccharine pr corpo babble invading every aspect and niche of their lives. And this is the straw that breaks the back. Say what you mean. Mean what you say. Otherwise get sorted with the other parasites.
- Bjartr 1y ago
  > Say what you mean. Mean what you say. It is far from that simple. It takes understanding how people will read between the lines of what you say, seeking unsaid meaning where there was none. I fight this constantly in my life. It would be so, so much easier and simpler for me if I could just say what I mean and have others understand that.

some_guy_nobel 1y ago

Nice post up until the section on "don'ts", at which point it loses the plot and almost becomes a performative caricature of itself: > Don’t feel like you have to continue the conversation if they respond. You can if you want, but don’t feel obligated. So why reach out at all? Solely for the (mentioned) networking off-chance they remember that you messaged them in the future? Seems pretty self-serving > Don’t trash your employer, nor respond if they do. If they start that, say “I’m sorry, I can imagine why you’d feel that way, but I can’t continue this conversation.” Imagine their perspective here (that is, use empathy) if you just cut off the conversation at the mention of the actor responsible for the reason you're messaging them at all. They would just feel even more isolated at this, and wonder why you reached out in the first place. So bizarre. > Finally, don’t do this if you are the manager who laid them off. Well, for a layoffs, not a pip, definitely do reach out to them as a manager. I can't think of anyone they'd like to hear from more than their manager to explain the situation and offer some sort of solace. > Don’t say things that might cause you trouble like “wish we could have kept you” or “you were such a great performer, I don’t know why they laid you off”. You don’t know the full details and you don’t want to expose yourself or your company to any legal issues. That's right - don't show any actual empathy, lest you put the company in any negative light!! NGL, this honestly reads like a satirical take on a sociopath submitting an assignment on how to show empathy. (Obviously OP is not a sociopath, I'm just saying if The Onion released this as written by one, I'd get a good chuckle).

raspasov 1y ago

>> Don’t say things that might cause you trouble like “wish we could have kept you” If I actually think that, I wouldn't shy away from saying it.

ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago

> But the main reason to do this is to be a good human being. That's the main reason that I do that kind of thing. It has sometimes resulted in career/monetary gains, but usually, it's just me, feeling decent about something. I really appreciate the post. Thanks for sharing it. You seem like a decent human being.

asacrowflies 1y ago
Are you reading all th other comments? Is this some irony I'm unaware of....lol
- ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
  Yeah. I find it disappointing. It's not LinkedIn "broetry." It's fairly classic advice, like I've been reading for 40 years. Moore is a decent chap. We don't really have much to do with each other, because we fly in different orbits, but I've enjoyed his contributions, and find his approach fairly mature and sane, compared to a lot. I feel as if a lot of people work hard to make this a darker place, and appreciate it, when folks try to encourage a more positive zeitgeist.
  - asacrowflies 1y ago
    I find the toxic positivity and parasitic pr speak to be far worse and negative for the zeitgeist. Remind me of most American "Christians" especially of the evangelical type who go on and on about " love* but are just bully's wearing a mask of toxic positivity and false empathy
    - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
      I guess that it makes sense to publicly attack everyone that expresses positive stuff -especially senior hiring managers-; fake or not. It just doesn't make sense to me, though. I'm dumb, that way. Have a great day!

SoftTalker 1y ago

I'd pick a nit on the phrase "sorry to hear you and <company> parted ways" To me, "parted ways" sounds like a mutually-agreed separation. I'm not sure what's better, maybe "sorry to hear we won't be working together anymore" but really, unless they were a pretty close friend I probably would not say anything. It just comes across as "sucks for you" while not-so-subtly drawing attention to the fact that I still have a job.

swiftcoder 1y ago
Yeah, I'd be much more onboard with a more positive "hey, I hope we get the chance to work together again" for someone I've genuinely enjoyed working with.

rodolphoarruda 1y ago

The last time I was let go I was given two days to phase my projects out to a colleague. But I also took the time to email/call all the customers I had contact with and asked them to send me an email to my personal account so that we could keep in touch, especially for future referrals. I've got 63 messages. It was such a relief and a joy to get all those messages coming in bitter days like the ones following a lay off.

kwar13 1y ago

> Don’t feel like you have continue the conversation if they respond. You can if you want, but don’t feel obligated. > Don’t state you are going to keep in touch, unless you plan to. Either this was written by someone who works in HR, or is some new AI slop. Why would you reach out with a note then...? Just don't in the first place if those are the suggestions.

strict9 1y ago

I agree with this message and happy to see it. But I think the more important point is the increasing number of layoffs linked in the article [1]. These layoffs are mostly ignored here and everywhere else. Jobs are getting offshored and outsourced in large quantities and the tech community is on the whole ambivalent about it. Unless you were directly impacted. The path for software developers looks bleak. While people are wringing their hands over AI while something else entirely is destroying job prospects for young grads. [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/layoffs-2025-highest-level-since-2020-labor-market-jobs-report/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/layoffs-2025-highest-level-sinc...

f4c39012 1y ago

LinkedIn allows you to write a recomendation, after submission it goes to the other person to approve. If you want to risk a little of your reputation to support another (and your employer doesn't prevent you from doing this) then its an easy way to help someone out

southernplaces7 1y ago

What a blandly stupid post. Imagine the person you write to, who got fired and is now worrying about their job prospects, kid's school, house payments etc, and other practical things, getting some saccharine note of half-baked "concern" in which you start with describing their having their ass having been canned as "parting ways". This kind of neutered corporate-speak has invasively permeated every level of modern business, government and organization discourse, it's downright revolting to see it also drain down into informal personal communication from one human being to another.

48terry 1y ago

> There may be benefits down the road, such as them remembering you kindly and helping you out in the future. This part sticks out to me because, in this article presumably about empathy, we couldn't help ourselves but to bring up "also, there could be incredible value to you, personally, for doing this". We couldn't resist, we couldn't make the article purely about the person who got fired, we gotta bring it back to me for a second. We need to talk about this caring outreach as a transaction. Not only does it read like a vulture's mentality to talk bout how you might gain from another person losing their job, it makes me question the author's future communications. If Moore hypothetically reached out to me with an empathetic hand, and I had seen this part of the article, I'd be stuck on it. Is he reaching to me because he actually cares about me, or is he more interested in the potential value reaching out to me would give? I mean, he wrote it out right here, so it's on his mind as a factor.

LargoLasskhyfv 1y ago

Would seem like toxic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_positivity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_positivity to me, if I'd be the affected.

mesarvagya 1y ago

Reads like a fucking corpspeak [1] [1] https://lurkertech.com/corpspeak/ https://lurkertech.com/corpspeak/

anovikov 1y ago

Aren't job being lost simply because Trump deports workers, and many run away by themselves fearing being deported?

Timwi 1y ago

> “wish we could have kept you” > “you were such a great performer, I don’t know why they laid you off” Can someone explain the legal(?!) problems with these sentences? I'm very confused.

RiverStone 1y ago

Thank you for this post. When I was laid off, a coworker reached out to me via email like how you suggested. He was the only one. That simple email meant a lot to me.