3 ms·

Something about web development really does seem to break a person's ability to design/architect a proper event-driven, data-oriented UI.

marginalia_nu 1y ago
I suspect there's a class of problems, front end development is one, ORM is another; where the problem itself is constrained in such a way that only shitty solutions exist. ORM keeps sucking because RDBMSes simply don't operate on objects. You can either impose ill conceived object models on the database, or try and fail to capture the database's affordances in objects. I don't have a theory on what's gone wrong with front-end development to cause its chronic disease, but it may simply be that HTML is a document markup language, and makes a questionable base for a user interface.
- taffer 1y ago
  > HTML is a document markup language No it is a hypertext [1] markup language and it doesn't suck if you actually use it as such. The problem is that we decided that <a> and <form> tags should be the only hypercontrols, only triggered by clicking on them. However, libraries like HTMX and Unpoly enhance HTML so that every element can act as a hypercontrol, responding to all kinds of events. This allows you to implement interactive features such as autocompletion, form validation and infinite scrolling without writing a single line of JavaScript. > ORM keeps sucking because RDBMSes simply don't operate on objects Have you read [2]? Modern SQL can return nested JSON. No ORM needed. [1] https://htmx.org/essays/how-did-rest-come-to-mean-the-opposite-of-rest/ https://htmx.org/essays/how-did-rest-come-to-mean-the-opposi... [2] https://www.scattered-thoughts.net/writing/sql-needed-structure/ https://www.scattered-thoughts.net/writing/sql-needed-struct...
- marcosdumay 1y ago
  The name for those is "wicked problem". They usually appear when your problem statement is itself incoherent. The entire thing about users interacting with data through computers is one of them. There are several inconsistent goals, like consistency is at odds with flexibility, and accessibility is at odds with security. We have those tools that push the incoherence around, but they are always prone to collide somewhere.
knallfrosch 1y ago
UI would be easy if its data wasn't just a cache.
naasking 1y ago
It doesn't help that JS is kinda shitty and that browsers had inconsistent behaviour for decades, and still have only partial support for some features.

marginalia_nu 1y ago

I suspect there's a class of problems, front end development is one, ORM is another; where the problem itself is constrained in such a way that only shitty solutions exist. ORM keeps sucking because RDBMSes simply don't operate on objects. You can either impose ill conceived object models on the database, or try and fail to capture the database's affordances in objects. I don't have a theory on what's gone wrong with front-end development to cause its chronic disease, but it may simply be that HTML is a document markup language, and makes a questionable base for a user interface.

taffer 1y ago
> HTML is a document markup language No it is a hypertext [1] markup language and it doesn't suck if you actually use it as such. The problem is that we decided that <a> and <form> tags should be the only hypercontrols, only triggered by clicking on them. However, libraries like HTMX and Unpoly enhance HTML so that every element can act as a hypercontrol, responding to all kinds of events. This allows you to implement interactive features such as autocompletion, form validation and infinite scrolling without writing a single line of JavaScript. > ORM keeps sucking because RDBMSes simply don't operate on objects Have you read [2]? Modern SQL can return nested JSON. No ORM needed. [1] https://htmx.org/essays/how-did-rest-come-to-mean-the-opposite-of-rest/ https://htmx.org/essays/how-did-rest-come-to-mean-the-opposi... [2] https://www.scattered-thoughts.net/writing/sql-needed-structure/ https://www.scattered-thoughts.net/writing/sql-needed-struct...
marcosdumay 1y ago
The name for those is "wicked problem". They usually appear when your problem statement is itself incoherent. The entire thing about users interacting with data through computers is one of them. There are several inconsistent goals, like consistency is at odds with flexibility, and accessibility is at odds with security. We have those tools that push the incoherence around, but they are always prone to collide somewhere.

knallfrosch 1y ago

UI would be easy if its data wasn't just a cache.

naasking 1y ago

It doesn't help that JS is kinda shitty and that browsers had inconsistent behaviour for decades, and still have only partial support for some features.